Throw team mate

[Stout Youngblood]

Like Darkson said, you can't use Safe Throw with TTM. All through the text of Safe Throw it references the 'ball'.

Also, in the text of TTM it tells you what happens when you fumble throwing your team mate:

A fumbled team-mate will land in the square he originally occupied.

[bbdave522]

Like Darkson said, you can't use Safe Throw with TTM. All through the text of Safe Throw it references the 'ball'.

Also, in the text of TTM it tells you what happens when you fumble throwing your team mate:

A fumbled team-mate will land in the square he originally occupied.

Yes, but TTM states that "The pass is worked out exactly the same as the player with Throw Team-Mate passing a ball, except the player must subtract 1 from the D6 roll when he passes the player, fumbles are not automatically turnovers, and Long Pass or Long Bomb range passes are not possible." I see no exception listed in either TTM or Safe Throw, so I would assume that Safe Throw applies, exactly as it would for the ball. Also, both Dump Off and HMP specifically reference the ball, but both of those skills explicitly forbid use in conjunction with TTM. That would lead me to believe that it is not enough for a skill to reference the ball specifically, but rather needs an explicit statement forbidding its use with TTM.

[funnyfingers]

bbdave - I think I already said that a few times Thanks for backing me up.

[funnyfingers]

Also again notice that even dump-off specifically says cannot be used with TTM even though I could never see a circumstance where that would be possible at all:

Dump-Off (Passing)
...allowing the player to get rid of the BALL before he is hit...Dump-
Off may not be used on the second block from an opponent with the
Frenzy skill or in conjunction with the Bombardier or Throw Team-Mate
skills.

[GalakStarscraper]

bbdave/funnyfingers:

There are NO rules in the game for holding onto a player. So you cannot create rules for the game because you feel like it.

Safe Throw specifically says: "he manages to keep hold of the ball".

Since there are no rulebook for holding onto a player so if you replace the word ball with Team-Mate it results in something that cannot happen which is why the BBRC did not say anything about TTM in Safe Throw because it should be self-evident that you cannot keep hold of a team-mate thus Safe Throw cannot be used with TTM.

As for your comment funnyfingers about the team-mate would land safely back in the square he came from if Safe Throw was used ... see my previous comment about creating rules. This is something you created not read. Safe Throw says what happens already ... it says he keeps hold of the ball. Not ... "he safely sets the ball down in a square next to him". If Safe Throw said the second ... I would say your argument had legs.

Bottom line on this one from me: This is not unclear wording or a wording error in the rulebook. If you acknowledge that you cannot create new rules for the game (ie holding onto a player) than it is self-evident that Safe Throw does not work with Throw Team-Mate.

Galak

[funnyfingers]

Galak, What do you think about the TTM wording for the Dump-off skill? My main point is that every skill that involves the ball says if TTM can't be used, even Dump-off which obviously could never even use dump-off...

[funnyfingers]

Also "then he manages to keep hold of the ball" can be like going to grab him instead of slipping and bashing the goblin he keeps a hold of him and doesn't fumble. It is completely within the realm of how it is written. Understood that is not the intention, but still can easily be argued.

switch ball with "then he manages to keep hold of his little buddy" Doesn't he have to hold his little buddy to throw him? He loses his hold when he normally fumbles and drops him on his head...

[GalakStarscraper]

But there are NO rules for carrying a player around the pitch. So you cannot HOLD onto what you are not HOLDING.

Dictionary definition of hold: " To have and keep in one's grasp"

KEEP in one's grasp. There are no rules for doing that.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

Galak, What do you think about the TTM wording for the Dump-off skill? My main point is that every skill that involves the ball says if TTM can't be used, even Dump-off which obviously could never even use dump-off...

But that is an issue with another skill of having overkill in its description... its a red herring to this discussion.

The case of Dump Off and HMP saying you cannot mix them with TTM is irrelevant to the fact that you cannot mix TTM with Safe Throw without creating new rules for the ability to either carry a player around the pitch for multiple turns AND rules to safely set a player down on purpose after picking him up. Since neither of these rules exist in the game ... Safe Throw cannot by definition work with TTM. Any attempt to argue otherwise requires you to change the definition of "hold" (which I realize you are now trying to do). However I really don't believe in Clinton-esque debates on the definition of "is"

Galak

[funnyfingers]

I really don't mean to argue and very much believe I am being sensible. Again I understand that I cannot use Safe Throw with TTM as you would know best. If I pickup my daughter and throw her in the pool, I was holding her before I threw her. I really am not grasping to come up with this. I think anyone who read through the rules could come to the same conclusion unless they came here and saw that you said otherwise.

[GalakStarscraper]

If I pickup my daughter and throw her in the pool, I was holding her before I threw her. I really am not grasping to come up with this.

But that is not what Safe Throw says.

It says you "keep hold of the ball".

Using your example this would mean that you almost drop your daugher but do not. However ... you have not thrown her AND you have not set her down. You are still holding her.

In real life that is fine ... but in Blood Bowl once you end up in that situation there are no rules for continuing to carry your daughter around and there are no rules for setting her down safely in any square.

There is no question that the TTM player holds the teammate at some point but once he is holding him there are only 3 possible outcomes:
1) He throws him
2) He fumbles him
3) He eats him

In order for Safe Throw to work there would have to be options #4 and #5.
4) He carries him around the pitch (until end of drive or he does something with him).
5) He safely sets him down

Without option #4 and #5 in the rules ... there is no way for Safe Throw to work with TTM. And I very very greatly disagree that most reasonable people would read it the way you did ... because I think most folks will realize that options #4 and #5 don't exist in the rules which means Safe Throw would not work.

Outside of bbdave .... I'm pretty sure the posters to this thread make me confident with this statement.

Galak

[Stout Youngblood]

I really don't mean to argue and very much believe I am being sensible. Again I understand that I cannot use Safe Throw with TTM as you would know best. If I pickup my daughter and throw her in the pool, I was holding her before I threw her. I really am not grasping to come up with this. I think anyone who read through the rules could come to the same conclusion unless they came here and saw that you said otherwise.

I am an 'anyone' and I never thought Safe Throw could be used with Throw Team Mate. Like Tom quoted, "you keep hold of the ball". Don't see it say anything about holding onto a player.

Throw Team Mate states, "A fumbled team-mate will land in the square he originally occupied." Seems pretty clear.

[Darkson]

Without adding a couple of rule changes in (holding a team-mate, placing the ball back in a square after using safe throw) I can't see how anyone can seriously even argue the point.

[daloonieshaman]

First my TTM question then my rant
TTM uses MOST passing skills and is treated as a PASS action
TTM uses the range ruler with the limit of Q/S
-1 to Pass a Squirming Pip (SA takes care of this)
-1 for each enemy tackle zone (not counting NoS)
+1 to Quick Pass
+1 Accurate
Pass allows a skill reroll
(did I miss anything/)

all that aside:
If by die cast the result is not fumbled he scatters 3 times the hits a square (occupied or not) and eventually ends up in the first empty square (no bounce if the first square after the scatter is vacant)
are there any +mods for landing through skill or agility chart?
I could not find a landing chart, the rest of the ag charts give you a bonus for an attempt in most cases

(I know you get -mods for ETZ)(and if you crush some one you face plant)

When nailing the Land

Question 2:
Always Hungry:
Roll a 1 then roll 2 + the guy gets away
now the quagmire
the Pass Action is automatically treated as a fumbled pass. Fumble the player with the Right Stuff skill as normal.
So if you have ST don't you hold on to him?

Rant:

• There are no listed rules stating you can hold on to a player.
  There are no listed rules stating that you cannot hold on to a player
  There are written rules to treat a TTM/AH player as a fumbled pass to be treated as normal.
  There is a skill/trait combination that allows you to hold on to a fumbled player

According to what is written in the rules (versus what is assumed/intended and not written) one can conclude that under a weird situation, johnny is taking a ride as he is treated as a normal fumbled pass.

It sucks but there are 2 sides and it always comes out in the most bizarre combination of things

The Safe Throw debate inclusion / exception is just a missed item based on an assumption that on one will agree around because they did not see it either way.

Simple answer:
"Until there is an official FAQ, the disbanded BBRC would like to errata/clarify that ST cannot be used with TTM (just a little 5 or so word sentence to paste at the end of the skill description) Among other editing needs
"But why would we do such a thing it is perfectly clear?"

Actually no it is not. As stated, some skills in the set went OUT OF THE WAY to exempt use, In this case a couple of guys are standing up and saying ST was not excluded here. Based on the set precedence, one can conclude the ability to use ST. "But you cannot hold a player". LOOPHOLE, the rules do not state that you cannot hold a player(I cannot see the reason to get that skill unless he is a 174 or something) So we missed one. Say, "oh chips, your right, we should add an unofficial correction (Cause unofficial is all we can do at this point)
See it from both sides, BBRC did exclude with DO and HMP and did not exclude with ST, so unofficially exclude it
simple simple simple

any illusion of you not having the power to create an UNOFFICIAL ERRATA is so full of chit. We all love what you guys have done and we have a ton of respect for you guys. This has now become a community again. you took us from 3rd to Granny stolen. Listen to suggestions and plan unofficial, non corporate supported errata to clear things up with simple changes, when 1-2 of 6000 happen to catch an anomaly, try to see it from their point of view there may or may not be something there. It is up to the Commissioner and Tournament organizers to accept SUGGESTED corrections/editing/sentence restructuring, in unofficial errata. And with any luck Granny will see the way of your wisdom and "Officially" include it. They use to ....

UNOFFICIAL Errata 1.whatever
Skill description update

Safe Throw:
Safe Throw may not be used with Throw Team Mate.
Please make adjustments accordingly

By the power invested in my insanity I proclaim the unofficial official change to Safe Throw
4th day of March 2010

[Grumbledook]

By the power invested in my insanity I proclaim the unofficial official change to Safe Throw
4th day of March 2010

like it has been since 1994... ;]

nice post tho lol