Skaven Gutter Runners Doubles Skill?

[Joemanji]

I'm no longer convinced by Horns. It is arguably as good or worse than Dauntless, and that is a normal skill pick. Dauntless has a 1 in 6 chance of failing against ST3, but on the up side can be used on blocks not just blitzes, and also has value against ST4 players.

[Yelf]

I'm no longer convinced by Horns. It is arguably as good or worse than Dauntless, and that is a normal skill pick. Dauntless has a 1 in 6 chance of failing against ST3, but on the up side can be used on blocks not just blitzes, and also has value against ST4 players.

Well to be honest horns can be usefull against ST4 players as well, its all about support. I wouldnt go sending my Runners into a -2D block/blitz on a player not unikely to have the mighty blow skill. They die easily enough as it is. A 1/6 is bad odds, especially dealing with key players.

Otherwise Ive found the advise Ive gotten really helpfull!

(sorry Joemanji)

[Leilond]

I depends on what do you want that gutter will be

Will it be a runner TD scorer?
- Two heads
- Big hand

Will it be a ball stripper or a safety?
- Horns (wrestle, dauntless next skills)
I've one like this and it is GREAT.

Will it be a ball carrier/retriver?
- Big hand

Will it be a catcher?
- Nerves of steel
- Extra arm

[Ullis]

I think Joemanji makes an excellent point about Dauntless. In the case of a Gutter Runner, the Horns only works to bring him up to ST3. If he were ST3 already, then Horns would have a lot more mileage to it, but GR's are stuck with ST2 at first and chances of getting +ST next (or as third skill) are very low.

Of course, against catcher-types of ST2 Horns is great, but I think the main object for a Horns Gutter Runner is extracting the ball. For this purpose Two Heads could be better, as it gets the GR into the cage in the first place, and helps on offence as well. Of course, for this build to work, you need one more extra skill (Dauntless), but once you have it, you're better at getting the ball than with just Horns.

The build I'm thinking about will look either:

1. Horns, Strip Ball, Wrestle
2. Two Heads, Strip Ball, Dauntless, Wrestle

Obviously build 1 will get those 1-d blocks faster, but build 2 lets you do more of those blocks.

[Leilond]

I think Joemanji makes an excellent point about Dauntless. In the case of a Gutter Runner, the Horns only works to bring him up to ST3. If he were ST3 already, then Horns would have a lot more mileage to it, but GR's are stuck with ST2 at first and chances of getting +ST next (or as third skill) are very low.

Of course, against catcher-types of ST2 Horns is great, but I think the main object for a Horns Gutter Runner is extracting the ball. For this purpose Two Heads could be better, as it gets the GR into the cage in the first place, and helps on offence as well. Of course, for this build to work, you need one more extra skill (Dauntless), but once you have it, you're better at getting the ball than with just Horns.

The build I'm thinking about will look either:

1. Horns, Strip Ball, Wrestle
2. Two Heads, Strip Ball, Dauntless, Wrestle

Obviously build 1 will get those 1-d blocks faster, but build 2 lets you do more of those blocks.

With a gutter runner I woulnd't use a double to "enter the cage", I will use a normal skill: "Leap"
Two heads is a VERY GOOD skill, but if the objective is only "entering the cage" and blitz, leap is more efficient (because do not use up your double)...

P.S.
Taking both Horns and dauntless isn't a waste. Dauntless is usefull when RECIVING a block (preventing 3 dice block and forcing your opponent to block with at least one assisting player to have 2 dices) and with horns let you try a block against a ST 4, if needed

[mepmuff]

Taking both Horns and dauntless isn't a waste. Dauntless is usefull when RECIVING a block (preventing 3 dice block and forcing your opponent to block with at least one assisting player to have 2 dices) and with horns let you try a block against a ST 4, if needed

You might want to doublecheck the skill descriptions. Dauntless only works when making a block and I believe that horns is applied before dauntless so you can't use dauntless and THEN apply the +1 from horns.

[Leilond]

Taking both Horns and dauntless isn't a waste. Dauntless is usefull when RECIVING a block (preventing 3 dice block and forcing your opponent to block with at least one assisting player to have 2 dices) and with horns let you try a block against a ST 4, if needed

You might want to doublecheck the skill descriptions. Dauntless only works when making a block and I believe that horns is applied before dauntless so you can't use dauntless and THEN apply the +1 from horns.

You're right on the first
On the second I know that you apply horns BEFORE dauntless, and that still helps you to block against ST 4 player
If you have +1 to strenght, you can try to block a ST4 player with only 5/6 to have the same strenght, that means you can use two dice with a single assistance

[mepmuff]

On the second I know that you apply horns BEFORE dauntless, and that still helps you to block against ST 4 player
If you have +1 to strenght, you can try to block a ST4 player with only 5/6 to have the same strengh, that means you can use two dice with a single assistance

Fair enough. Misunderstood you the first time around.

I still wouldn't take them together for that reason though, as you'd be using a whole skill to basically get a +1 modifier on dauntless rolls when blitzing anyone with strength 3 and up.

[Leilond]

On the second I know that you apply horns BEFORE dauntless, and that still helps you to block against ST 4 player
If you have +1 to strenght, you can try to block a ST4 player with only 5/6 to have the same strengh, that means you can use two dice with a single assistance

Fair enough. Misunderstood you the first time around.

I still wouldn't take them together for that reason though, as you'd be using a whole skill to basically get a +1 modifier on dauntless rolls when blitzing anyone with strength 3 and up.

Not quite. Horns helps you to blitz ST 2 player (shinks, human and woody catchers, gutter runners, goblins and halflings) with two dice for free (or with one dice in desperate situations) if your opponent has an assisting player), and for a stripballer it's GREAT
I think that Horns and Dauntless complete eachother, granting two dice against ST 2, one dice against ST 3, one dice against ST 4 five times on six, and (in VERY desperate situation) one dice against ST 5 four times on six... without counting block assisting
Immagine the fun when your gutter runner put down a troll... it's awesome

For a STRIPBALLER, I will sure opt for Horns in the first time... because it's 100% usefull against ST2 and ST3 player... dauntless is unusefull against ST2 player, can fail against ST 3 player and it's dangerous to be used against ST4 player... If I've to choose between the two, I will go for Horns

[bareuf]

I'd choose Two-Heads, it's a multitasking dodge maximising skill.

Useuful to hog ball carriers in the first turn of your defence (even entering a cage would be a 50% rerollable roll), give assists wenever you want and, in bad situations, score as well.

I tried it and liked very much.

[stormsson]

Hmmm, no-one seems to mention the option I went for with my gutters.

I have 2 offensive runners (block, sidestep, fend and the other +1ma, sprint, sure feet) and 2 defensive runners (block, sidestep, tackle, diving tackle and shadowing next the other extra arms, block, sidestep and pass block and catch or really long legs next).

My pass blocking gutter has the most interceptions in our league, a stat which is sure to only increase after he gets his next raise.

[Yelf]

Hmmm, no-one seems to mention the option I went for with my gutters.

I have 2 offensive runners (block, sidestep, fend and the other +1ma, sprint, sure feet) and 2 defensive runners (block, sidestep, tackle, diving tackle and shadowing next the other extra arms, block, sidestep and pass block and catch or really long legs next).

My pass blocking gutter has the most interceptions in our league, a stat which is sure to only increase after he gets his next raise.

This is interesting, you have several Runners living long enough to get five skills?! How do you achieve that?

[stormsson]

My 2 offensive gutters only have 3 skills each, my 2 defensive have 4 skills each. What I was trying to say is that shadowing, catch or really long legs would be my next choices on the defensive gutters.

I should also point out that my movement 10 is only str1 and my extra arms is only av6.

So I don't know if I am managing to protect them that well other than to say I've been lucky on my injury rolls.

[La_Yena]

first double is VLL, then leap. now u have the perfect td machine. quite unstoppable