Juggernaut and Wrestle

[Smeborg]

My interpretation of the Juggernaut skill wording is that use of the skill is mandatory. Thus it is not a skill that you can choose to use or not when Blitzing.

[landrover]

Yes. If a player has Block + Juggs

Like Bertha Bigfist???

[Grumbledook]

All skills are optional apart from frenzy which specifies that in the skill description.

[Smeborg]

Grum - the rules do not say that Frenzy is the only mandatory skill. They say rather that skill use is optional unless specified in the skill description.

QUOTE
Juggernaut (Strength)
A player with this skill is virtually impossible to stop once he is inmotion. If this player takes a Blitz Action, the opposing player may not use his Fend, Stand Firm or wrestle skills against the Juggernaut player's blocks. The Juggernaut player may also choose to treat a "Both Down" result as if a "Pushed" result had been rolled instead for blocks he makes during a Blitz Action.
UNQUOTE

Thus we have 2 different things with this skill:

(a) The Juggernaut player may choose whether to treat a Both Down as a Both Down or a Pushed result (optional skill use).

(b) The opposing player may not use Fend, Stand Firm or Wrestle against a player with the Juggernaut skill (mandatory skill use). The Juggernaut player may not choose whether or not to use the skill in this case: the above wording of the skill description ("may not use") makes its application mandatory.

[Darkson]

Think Smeborg is correct, much like Grab cancels Sidestep, regardless of wheter either player wants to use it or not.

[Grumbledook]

Grab is also optional, like tackle is...

Frenzy states "Unless otherwise overridden, this skill must always be used"

the other skills don't say that

Page 14 of the CRP (page 10 of the document) says

"Unless stated otherwise in the skill description you never have to use a skill just becuase the player's got it"

Frenzy is the only one that says that (off the top of my head) and negative traits obv. Juggernaut, grab, tackle etc you choose to use.

[voyagers_uk]

I have to side with Smeborg on this, it is quite clear...

[Grumbledook]

It says the opposing player may not use those skills if the juggernaut player is blitzing, it doesn't say that the juggernaut player has to use juggernaut when he is blitzing.

It is unclear, ergo falls on the side of convention of it being optional, unlike frenzy which says you must use it.

Both sides can say they are right until we get BBRC to say one way or the other ;]

[voyagers_uk]

I suppose the question I would want to ask myself woud be is there a circumstance where I would not want to use Juggernaut to stop my opponents skills....

if it stops them being annoying or taking me down... or helps me take them down I am going to say "JUGGS" a lot.

[Grumbledook]

I can think of a few occasions:

You might want them to use Fend to prevent you having to do a gfi for a second frenzy hit, or forcing you to follow up into a square you don't want to be in (next to the sideline, between two opponents, into a tackle zone etc)

You may prefer them to use stand firm on a push back if you are stripping the ball loose should they then end up next to othe sideline and you would rather it scattered from where their player is than risk the crowd throw in.

Of course nothing forcing them to use their skills even if you decide against using Juggernaut. Just a quick couple of examples off the top of my head.

[Smeborg]

We are arguing about when skill use is mandatory or not.

In support of my contention that the use of Juggernaut is mandatory when Blitzing against players with Wrestle, Fend, Stand Firm, I would point out that the Juggernaut skill description refers to "a player with this skill" (not "a player using this skill"). "A player with this skill" + "may not use" seems to me to equate to mandatory skill use.

[Grumbledook]

It is far too ambiguous in the way it is worded compared to Frenzy which leads me to believe that it falls under the rules which dictate you can choose to use it or not. If in doubt go with the convention not against it imo.

[Darkson]

Grab is also optional, like tackle is...

Not when hitting a player with Side Step - they automatically cancel each other out, as has been confirmed by BBRC members. You cannot elect not to use Grab so your opponent can use Side Step - if you have grab, and your opponent has SS, they cancel.

[Grumbledook]

seems an odd ruling when tackle and dodge don't cancel automatically

I can't see why you would not want to use grab to cancel sidestep though and if you did then your opponent would get suspicious and elect not to use side step, so that particular one is rather meaningless

all rather inconsistent though if you ask me

I did a search for grab side step in both here and the rules queries section and can't find such a ruling, where was it made?

[Smeborg]

Grum - I agree that there seem to be inconsistencies, but only if you try and guess (or second guess) the intentions of the rule writers. I was just trying to argue solely from the basis of the written rules, as (say) Galak might.

All the best.