Claw - any armour roll of 8 or more

[daloonieshaman]

moot point to me
CLMBPO never ever works against Goblins/Halflings/Snotlings regardless of the statistical numbers. Kinda like a second GFI into the endzone

[Mossman]

Can't let you say that Starfox!

You're right that it is a little bit better to KO, but it is definitely worse in terms of killing players. That is what I understand by deadly so sorry if I misunderstood

If killing players is what you mean by deadly then you are correct, it was easier with Claw and RSC in LRB4. But the main problem with CRP is that it is to easy to remove players from the pitch by simply blitzing them and thats what I was talking about.

I think its very strange that in CRP they removed a skill that make it easier to kill players (RSC) and instead replaced it with a skill that make it easier to knock out players instead (improved version of pilling on) even though their intentions was to make it easier to kill players in replacement of aging. So its very strange that they made those rule changes since it doesnt fit their own goal but rather goes against it.

[Mossman]

The strategical decisions of the coach should have the biggest impact of the game, not the injury dice of your pombers.

Or the ball handling dice of your ball handlers? I suspect that these have a far bigger impact on the result of a game than injury dice.

Cant be compared. There is a lot of tactic and strategy involved in ball handling unlike blitzing with a killer. You can actually defend yourself tactically against failed pick ups but you can not defend against clawpombers (except by taking fend on every player but if you do that your team will be so worthless that you will lose anyway). An experienced coach that protects the ball is very likely to win against a noob even if he fails one or two attempts to pick up the ball. But he is not as likely to win against a noob that uses the simple tactic of blitzing with a clawpomber every turn. The only thing the experienced coach can do in this case is to pray for very good dice and hope he doesnt lose a player every turn. Because if he does that, he is very very likely to lose the game regardless of how skilled he is thanks to his number disadvantage.

In LRB4 it was called dice rape to lose against a noob because you had 5 players left after a few blocks and blitzes with mighty blow. But in LRB6 it isnt a dice rape anylonger to have 5 players left and lose against a noob, its normal.

[Mossman]

Claw is simply not overpowered by itself. It is less useful then MB for AV8, useless for <AV7, and only marginally better then MB for AV9. It is basically a situation skill - compare to MB, PO, or Guard and imagine you are playing a Chaos team in a league with no Dwarves or Orcs.

Claw is definitely not overpowered by itself. However it is very strong in combination with MB.

Further, SOMETHING has to focus on killing those AV9 players with aging removed. Otherwise in a perpetual league Dwarves and Orcs are virtually immortal.

I totally agree. And claw is a good solution for that.

Piling on however should be nerfed.

[Mossman]

Second, at least in FUMBBL Box,I think you've identified the problem TV-based MM

I dont like TV-based MM either. It changes the goal of teambuilding from trying to build up teams to minmaxing teams instead and thats not the way I think bloodbowl should be played. At least not for me.

I also think clawpomb is a bigger problem in TV-based MM environments. But the only reason for that is because it is much more common there on low TV levels since people are minmaxing so much.

mattgslater and I went around this debate for some time and eventually we concluded (and you are, of course, free to disagree) that the problem (if there is one) doesn't lie with the combo, but with what it does to certain high potential but slow-skilling players (BOBs, TGs, Mummies etc). This causes team development issues. One way to relieve this is to allow a slightly better targeting of the MVP. Optional rules in CRP suggest that you can merely nominate whoever you like, but we settled on rolling for two players and selecting one as a reasonable way to speed things up; if it's not fast enough then you can always randomly select more players to be eligible.

The problem is that from a single pow with a clawpomber it is 58,44% chance to remove a mummy from the pitch. That is extremly broken since undead teams are nothing without mummies. So the problem definitiately lies in the combo itself. Piling on is simply to strong as it is now and needs to be nerfed.

[dode74]

The strategical decisions of the coach should have the biggest impact of the game, not the injury dice of your pombers.

Or the ball handling dice of your ball handlers? I suspect that these have a far bigger impact on the result of a game than injury dice.

Cant be compared.

Of course they can. If it's the ball handling decisions of the coach which win the game the majority of the time (and it is - I can show you the stats if you like but there is a weak correlation between causing more cas than the opposition an winning the game) then it is indeed those coach decisions which are winning the game.

There is a lot of tactic and strategy involved in ball handling unlike blitzing with a killer. You can actually defend yourself tactically against failed pick ups but you can not defend against clawpombers (except by taking fend on every player but if you do that your team will be so worthless that you will lose anyway). An experienced coach that protects the ball is very likely to win against a noob even if he fails one or two attempts to pick up the ball.

I have no issues with that.
[/quote]But he is not as likely to win against a noob that uses the simple tactic of blitzing with a clawpomber every turn. The only thing the experienced coach can do in this case is to pray for very good dice and hope he doesnt lose a player every turn. Because if he does that, he is very very likely to lose the game regardless of how skilled he is thanks to his number disadvantage.

In LRB4 it was called dice rape to lose against a noob because you had 5 players left after a few blocks and blitzes with mighty blow. But in LRB6 it isnt a dice rape anylonger to have 5 players left and lose against a noob, its normal.[/quote]Again, the correlation between causing more casualties and winning the game is weak - it makes a difference in ~13% of matches (from data taken from ~30k matches in the FOL open TV-based MM league on the Cyanide client).

I dont like TV-based MM either. It changes the goal of teambuilding from trying to build up teams to minmaxing teams instead and thats not the way I think bloodbowl should be played. At least not for me.

I also think clawpomb is a bigger problem in TV-based MM environments. But the only reason for that is because it is much more common there on low TV levels since people are minmaxing so much.

Pretty much in agreement there.

The problem is that from a single pow with a clawpomber it is 58,44% chance to remove a mummy from the pitch.

But he has to get the POW. Mummies are ST5 and should have guard by the time there are cpomb players around. If you are letting your opponent get 2d blocks from ST4 players on ST5 players with guard then you probably need to revise your tactics.

[daloonieshaman]

Is this thread not so much about power but about poor coaching

[swilhelm73]

The problem is that from a single pow with a clawpomber it is 58,44% chance to remove a mummy from the pitch.

One other point though if you do pile on, the other team has a counter to that...fouling.

I've got a Block/Dodge/SS/MB/PO Necro WW that I run in a league. There are times where I don't use PO primarily because of the threat of a return foul. In order to foul him if I don't use PO, you've got to get a POW and work to get some assists because of SS.

Oh, and for your specific example Undead teams are especially good foulers.

Of course this plays out in an interesting way...the more I'm ahead in player number, the freer I am to use PO since the risk of a decent foul goes down, which in turn increases the number of opponents I take off the field.

All this being said, generally if my opponent has a MB/PO player getting rid of him becomes a core part of my strategy in the game...which indicates it is a powerful skill combo.

[daloonieshaman]

and your 60K guy takes out a 200K+ guy

[Mossman]

Or the ball handling dice of your ball handlers? I suspect that these have a far bigger impact on the result of a game than injury dice.

Cant be compared.

Of course they can. If it's the ball handling decisions of the coach which win the game the majority of the time (and it is - I can show you the stats if you like but there is a weak correlation between causing more cas than the opposition an winning the game) then it is indeed those coach decisions which are winning the game.

The difference was that ballhandling requires skill while clawpombing doesnt and thats a problem for us who think that skill level should play a bigger part of the game and lottery less. Im tired of playing against noobs who know nothing about ballhandling or positioning but still manage to win because they remove a player every turn with clawpomb and me having only 5 players left for the second half.

I agree with you that ball handling decisions and positioning (skill level) still have the biggest impact on the game but that doesnt mean the impact of clawpomb isnt to big. When I said that the injury dice of your pombers had the biggest impact on the game it was of course a hyperbole. What I meant was that piling on has way to big impact and needs to be nerfed.

I will happily look at any stats you have but I doubt you have any that you can draw any conclusions from regarding this issue. What you need to do is compare the win percentage between chaos teams that lack a clawpomber with chaos teams that have one. Preferably the comparsion should also only contain high level coaches since there is a chance that a lot of worse coaches use their clawpombers in a less effective way for example pile on when they shouldnt or dont blitz/block with them enough.

Again, the correlation between causing more casualties and winning the game is weak - it makes a difference in ~13% of matches (from data taken from ~30k matches in the FOL open TV-based MM league on the Cyanide client).

There is a reason elf teams and skaven can win games you know? Thanks to their higher movement and agilty they often win their matches even though they generally cause less casulties than their opponents. Its nothing strange with that.

The problem is that from a single pow with a clawpomber it is 58,44% chance to remove a mummy from the pitch.

But he has to get the POW. Mummies are ST5 and should have guard by the time there are cpomb players around. If you are letting your opponent get 2d blocks from ST4 players on ST5 players with guard then you probably need to revise your tactics.

If you are going to protect your mummies from being blitzed or blocked like they were skinks then you wont be able to use them as you should. You wont be able to use them to tie up 2 players for example, or you wont be able to put them infront of your ballcarrier to clear a path since they could easily be blitzed there or blocked down by a team with greater overall strength/more guards/more players. If you think that mummies never go down in bloodbowl, then you are simply wrong. I often manage to block them down.

[dode74]

What you need to do is compare the win percentage between chaos teams that lack a clawpomber with chaos teams that have one.

Actually I only need to look at win% for Chaos. If it's such common knowledge that CPOMB is so powerful then surely there aren't enough teams without CPOMBers to make a difference. If you can find a set of teams without CPOMBers then I'll happily run the numbers for you.

There is a reason elf teams and skaven can win games you know? Thanks to their higher movement and agilty they often win their matches even though they generally cause less casulties than their opponents. Its nothing strange with that.

Completely agree.

If you are going to protect your mummies from being blitzed or blocked like they were skinks then you wont be able to use them as you should.

Did I say "like skinks"? Please don't strawman. The fact is that you should have enough guard at the point that chaos are bristling with claw that, combined with ST5, getting a pow is actually not as easy as all that. Sure, mummies go down - everything does - but that doesn't make them skinks.
And yes, you should have to change up your tactics from time to time.

[swilhelm73]

And yes, you should have to change up your tactics from time to time.

Yes, this!

Claw is almost as important for forcing Orcs and Dwarves to play more then exactly one strategy as it is for trimming down their av9 players.

In the case of UN vs Chaos at high TV I would presume that your mummies are going to have a hard time....but your ghouls should prove tough to stop. A claw chaos team with sufficient guard to go after the Mummies probably doesn't have enough tackle/Tents to stop the UN team from scoring.

I was playing against a human team recently with my high TV chaos team. The opposing coach remarked he was surprised that I'd build one CW as Block/Guard/SF - no MB or claw yet. And at about the same time we were taking that CW managed to tie up a few of the human team's player to let me score the game winning TD.

Overall there is *far* too much focus on claw in most BB forums. Claw will be decisive some games, and useless in others, like any other 2nd tier skill.

[Chris]

The combo makes luck more important basically. Better than average luck and you can cart players off the pitch. Even average luck is pretty damn good. And whilst some teams with cheap disposable linemen can risk fouling for everyone else it is high risk low reward. I am amazed when I meet a Chaos team who hasn't bothered making a MB/PO/CL. Why wouldn't you? It is a better investment than a fouler and really has the bonus of if the enemy does try and foul you they have a 11/36 chance of going off for the rest of the game. It is game winning if you get lucky and hardly detrimental if you don't. And has the added the bonus in scheduled leagues of being able to play to kill a dominating team in the hope it starts losing the next few games giving you a chance to beat it point wise. When even Skaven are making one you know its good...

[daloonieshaman]

The combo makes luck more important basically. Better than average luck and you can cart players off the pitch. Even average luck is pretty damn good. And whilst some teams with cheap disposable linemen can risk fouling for everyone else it is high risk low reward. I am amazed when I meet a Chaos team who hasn't bothered making a MB/PO/CL. Why wouldn't you? It is a better investment than a fouler and really has the bonus of if the enemy does try and foul you they have a 11/36 chance of going off for the rest of the game. It is game winning if you get lucky and hardly detrimental if you don't. And has the added the bonus in scheduled leagues of being able to play to kill a dominating team in the hope it starts losing the next few games giving you a chance to beat it point wise. When even Skaven are making one you know its good...

Gobbos LOVE MBPOCL
go ahead and lay down my 40 pointer so I can dance on the face of you 110+ pointer with DPSG

[Mossman]

What you need to do is compare the win percentage between chaos teams that lack a clawpomber with chaos teams that have one.

Actually I only need to look at win% for Chaos. If it's such common knowledge that CPOMB is so powerful then surely there aren't enough teams without CPOMBers to make a difference. If you can find a set of teams without CPOMBers then I'll happily run the numbers for you.

Lets take a look at win% for Chaos.

In LRB4 chaos win% against dwarfs at low TV ranges (900-1200 TV) is 46.11%. At high TV ranges (1900 TV and up) it is 53,12%. The reason for this increase is of course the fact that chaos perform better at high TV when they have gotten some basic skills.

Now lets look at CRP. In CRP chaos win% against dwarfs at low TV ranges (900-1200 TV) is 46,05%. This is about the same win% as they had in LRB4, it hasnt changed since clawpomb is very uncommon at low TV ranges since its takes so many skills to acquire the combo. At high TV ranges in CRP however (1900 TV and up), where clawpomb is very common, chaos win% against dwarfs is as high as 69,02%! Compare that to the 53,12% win percentage they had in LRB4 at similar TV ranges and you see how powerful clawpomb is!

In other words one single overpowered skill combo, that doesnt even require skill to be used efficiently, by itself increased the win% by more than 15 percentage points! 15 percentage points is HUGE. The difference in skill level between the average coach with 53% win percentage and the average coach with 69% win percentage is gigantic, but now one single combo equals that whole gap by itself.


But the real power of piling on/claw/mb in a match-up between chaos and dwarfs is far greater than these numbers show. At high TV levels most chaos teams are having clawpombers but at the same time most dwarf teams they are facing are having pombers which is also a very powerful combination against av8 beastmen. If it werent for the fact that dwarfs are also making use of the overpowered piling on skill themselves then the win percentage for chaos would be even higher than 69% against dwarfs! It would be ridiculously high! Thats how strong, broken and game deciding these combos are. Now I wouldnt have minded if a certain combo was that game decidinig if it still required THOUGHT, but that isnt the case with clawpomb and pomb since they just require the simple tactic of blitzing every turn with such a player to have enormous impact. That means skill level doesnt matter as much anymore and instead rolling good armor and injury rolls with your clawpomber have been made much more relevant.