Hypnotic Gaze & Tentacles ... did I get another rule wrong??

[Khail]

So, Khail, you could HG if you fail a dodge or a GFI in your opinion?

Tentacles says: Ends action immediately. So no Pass, if it was a Pass-action, no HG if it was a Move-action, etc.

That's the way I read it.

I, too, am understanding "at the end" as an integral part of the mentioned thing (say a move action or a month). And if something ends immediately, it is no longer. So no "at the end" is possible any longer.

Another semantic example would be "I want to confess my sins at the end of my live". But if my life ends immediately, there is no time to to that anymore.

Failing a dodge or GFI causes a turnover, which explicitly states that the action "ends immediately even if it was only partially completed". Note the difference in wording. Still, there's ambiguity there, I'll give you that.

Pass doesn't say you make the pass at the end of the action like HG does, it says you make the pass at the end of the move, which you never got to because tentacles ended the action.

[Angeblich]

Pass doesn't say you make the pass at the end of the action like HG does, it says you make the pass at the end of the move, which you never got to because tentacles ended the action.

So you say, since the Pass itself is an integral part of the Pass-action, it can't be used, when the action ends immediately, but the wording of HG suggests to you that it is made AFTER the Move-action, so it can still be made when the Move-action ends immediately.

This still is the "battle of semantics", where you read "at the end of" as "after it has ended" or maybe "while it is ending" (which I would find a bit hard to believe, since there is no "ending process" of an action in BB (at least that I am aware of)). I am no native speaker, but to exlude "at the end of" from the object it refers to is something I can't get my head around. Maybe a good example of this use in another context would help.

BTW, from a Fluff point of view I totally see how HG could be used (as well as Pass...). But the explicit ending of "the action" instead of "the movement" makes me think it is intended (that dreaded word... ) to cancel everything on that player.

[Khail]

It does come down to semantics at some point. Hypho Gaze's "at the end of" means exactly that (in my mind anyway). It happens as the action is ending. The action ends regardless of if you move 5 squares or are held in place by Tentacles. Tentacles "ends immediately" still ends the action.

Note that on the failed dodge or GFI Hypno Gaze could not be used because the player is already prone. Only Extraordinary skills can be used while prone/stunned.

So you say, since the Pass itself is an integral part of the Pass-action, it can't be used, when the action ends immediately, but the wording of HG suggests to you that it is made AFTER the Move-action, so it can still be made when the Move-action ends immediately.

You pass after the movement portion of the pass action, but before the action ends. Tentacles ends the action immediately, so there's no point at which you could pass.

[Alamar]

I think that everyone agrees that the wording is foggy enough for an official ruling ... right?

I think my interpretation is right ... others are sure theirs is right. A quasi-official ruling would be cool.

[Smeborg]

[Actually... it's English.

No.... That's the english you're looking for

Fans, it's an obvious case of Georgia "English" vs Washington "English".... The punters are feverishly looking for a Brit to referee (Queen's English)....

As Churchill said: two nations divided by a common language. We seem to have gone to the next stage: two nations divided by a common rulebook.

[Aino]

I've never had the issue, because I never play with and seldom against vampires.
I would never have raised the issue if an opponet used HG when caught up in tetacles... UNTIL NOW!

Reading the wording, "at the end of" makes it all clear to me. Your action ended with tentacles ("his Action ends immediatly"), it is thus over... you're past the end of your action, do no opportunity to use HG!

Using same wording you cannot pass, throw your block dice during a blitz, give a hand-off, or make your armour roll if fouling when being caught up in tentacles.

Dura lex, sed lex

Aino

OOH, found another possibly beardy semantical interpretation:
How about Going for it after being held by tentacles?
"When a player takes any Action apart from a Block, he me try to move one or two extra squares"... Does it say that your going for it is part of your action??

[Digger Goreman]

[Khail]

I've never had the issue, because I never play with and seldom against vampires.
I would never have raised the issue if an opponet used HG when caught up in tetacles... UNTIL NOW!

Reading the wording, "at the end of" makes it all clear to me. Your action ended with tentacles ("his Action ends immediatly"), it is thus over... you're past the end of your action, do no opportunity to use HG!

Using same wording you cannot pass, throw your block dice during a blitz, give a hand-off, or make your armour roll if fouling when being caught up in tentacles.

Dura lex, sed lex

Aino

OOH, found another possibly beardy semantical interpretation:
How about Going for it after being held by tentacles?
"When a player takes any Action apart from a Block, he me try to move one or two extra squares"... Does it say that your going for it is part of your action??

Did tentacles end the action? Yes. When is HG used? Oh yeah - AT THE END OF THE ACTION. You can't end the action without having an "at the end of the action" step. Otherwise the action never ends and the game bluescreens.

No you can't GFI, the action ended. No you can't pass/handoff/foul or blitz, the action ended. None of those things happen "at the end of the action". HG (for whatever reason) does. It's sloppy wording, but that's how it's written.

[Wanchor]

Note that on the failed dodge or GFI Hypno Gaze could not be used because the player is already prone. Only Extraordinary skills can be used while prone/stunned.

Hypnotic Gaze is an Extraordinary skill.

Anyway, an official ruling would be nice.

[Khail]

Holy crap, you're right

So yeah, that breaks things. It'd be good if we could get an answer on this one.

[Wanchor]

So yeah, that breaks things.

Not really. There's no way that a vamp can wind up on his back after beginning a move action without causing a turnover. "Ends immediately" and all that. Regardless, it'd only break things, as you put it, if you interpret the rules to allow activity after the end of an action.

It'd be good if we could get an answer on this one.

Yeah. I wonder why no one pipes up.

[plasmoid]

Hmmm...
Maybe it's just some old habit messing with us.

The old tentacles did not end the action. It ended movement, so you could still pass on a pass action etc. By extension, you could also gaze.

Perhaps this is just a classic example of rules have been rewritten, but some old habits are sticking?

Cheers
Martin

[Angeblich]

Hmmm...
Maybe it's just some old habit messing with us.

The old tentacles did not end the action. It ended movement, so you could still pass on a pass action etc. By extension, you could also gaze.

Perhaps this is just a classic example of rules have been rewritten, but some old habits are sticking?

Cheers
Martin

No, it's a "but it's in the rules"-problem of imprecise semantics. It seems different people interpret the compination of "at the end" and "ends the action immediately" differently. One side thinks a possible "at the end"-step is not possible if the action "ends immediately", the other side thinks, a "at the end"-step would occur always as an undeletable part of "end", so also with "ends immediately", like as an integral part of any "ending" that could occur.

To give another example for Khail's point of view: If the teacher says: "at the end of every lesson you get a summary on paper" and then he says "the lesson ends right now. immediately" the students would still expect to get a summary.

The other side thinks of it more along the lines of: "at the end of my life I will tell you who your father is", which you could not do, if your life suddenly ends immediately, say with a shot in the head.

So the usage of "at the end" differs even in other situations, so a clarification would be a big help.

[Wylder]

I don't think I would have allowed Hypnogaze to be used after being held by tentacles.

This thread makes me unsure.

[daloonieshaman]

try this END on for size:

If you do an action that causes a turnover it says:

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed.

so this end I would say NO on the Hypno
Tentacles way yes he can zap em
don't forget AT THE END OF HIS TURN HE MUST FEED if he failed Blood Lust

If he has to use Failed BloodLust the he can use Hypno