Hypnotic Gaze & Tentacles ... did I get another rule wrong??

[Khail]

try this END on for size:

If you do an action that causes a turnover it says:

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately even if it was only partially completed.

so this end I would say NO on the Hypno

It still Ends, immediately or not. Hypno gaze isn't another action, so you wouldn't be breaking any rules of grammar or game if you used it.

[Dzerards]

Actually, reading the rules for blood lust helps. It also says that "at the end of the declared action... the vampire must feed" but adds, once the vampire has fed "he may complete his action". Therefore implying that the term 'at the end of the action' is still part of the action. At least in terms of Blood Lust.

So there you have two vampiric skills, both with the term "at the end of the action" in them, but one that explicitly implies that the piece's action is not over until you have done everything you have to do with that piece, including steps that happen at the end of the action. Now unless someone knows that Hypnotic Gaze is supposed to be interpreted differently than Blood Lust, then I see no reason why you would choose not to go with the precedent set by Blood Lust for Hypnotic Gaze when dealing with Tentacles.

[Wanchor]

...then I see no reason why you would choose not to go with the precedent set by Blood Lust for Hypnotic Gaze when dealing with Tentacles.

Other than the precedent set by the majority of failed rolls, that is, turnovers. Blood Lust and Hypnotic Gaze seem rather to be exceptions.

[Dzerards]

...then I see no reason why you would choose not to go with the precedent set by Blood Lust for Hypnotic Gaze when dealing with Tentacles.

Other than the precedent set by the majority of failed rolls, that is, turnovers. Blood Lust and Hypnotic Gaze seem rather to be exceptions.

The way I read it I don't believe Blood Lust is an exception. It says your action isn't complete until you bite a thrall. So a vampire that fails Blood Lust, and then fails to pick up the ball, couldn't turn round and bite an adjacent thrall cause that would be the last step in his action and that action, and the turn, have both been immediately ended by the failed pick up. So off he goes to the reserve box. Likewise a vampire next to a Beast of Nurgle who fails a Blood Lust roll, and fails to escape from the tentacles, couldn't bite an adjacent thrall either and would be off to the stands. He could of course not activate the tentacles by not trying to move away from the beast and just bite the thrall and Hypno Gaze the Beast (but in what order!?!? Roll for Hypnotic Gaze and the thrall's injury simultaneously maybe if they both have to happen at the end of the action. )

It is only if you interpret the phase 'at the end of the action' to mean 'not part of the action', that you could consider them exceptions, and looking at the description of Hypnotic Gaze by itself there is nothing to definitively suggest this isn't the right interpretation. But for Blood Lust it is explicitly stated this isn't the case and I can see no logically reason not to use this precedent to clarify the interpretation of Hypnotic Gaze, were the wording isn't as clear.

[daloonieshaman]

apples to apples
Both Hypno and BL are extraordinary traits, so other than Vamps who has them? (not counting Stars)
It is not clear each way and at the rate things are it will never be clear.
Ask your Commish as his word is law and badda bing it is settled

[Gimli]

I got to say I'm with Alamar on this one.

It says "The player may use HG at the end of his move action...", not 'after his move action has ended'. As Alamar said, if someone said they were going to pay me at the end of the month, I would expect them to pay me that month, not after the month had ended. It is the same with passing and hand-offs, you do the pass or hand off at the end of the action.

Therefore Tentacles wins, cause even though HG is at the end of the action it is still part of the action.

I think the problem here is that Gerard and Alamar are treating the failed Tentacles as tantatmount to the Move action never happening, therefore HG can't be used. But that isn't what the rule says. Tentacles just causes the Move action to end sooner than the moving player would have liked. It still occurred. It still came to an end. HG can then be used. I'm with Khail on this - the rules are pretty plain.

Another way of looking at this is if the HG player hadn't tried to move, there is no doubt he could have used HG. So because he tried to get away and didn't, he can't use HG? Again, that doesn't make any sense.

[Cyrus-Havoc]

I can see how you could argue either side of this but to me the key word is not 'end' but 'immediately' which implies nothing else happens.

(Dictionary says 'occurring at once, direct, not seperated by others.')

If it just said turn or action ends then it would follow that you now could use HG but immediately to me procludes any and all other usage.

I am not in anyway sure that this is what is intended but if asked to rule in my league I would rule against it unless a clarification is issued.

[daloonieshaman]

I can see how you could argue either side of this but to me the key word is not 'end' but 'immediately' which[ implies nothing else happens.

(Dictionary says 'occurring at once, direct, not seperated by others.')

If it just said turn or action ends then it would follow that you now could use HG but immediately to me procludes any and all other usage.

I am not in anyway sure that this is what is intended but if asked to rule in my league I would rule against it unless a clarification is issued.

question:
If you go for it with the ball and trip your turn ends immediately (or other such turnovers), yet the ball bounces and if it bounces in another players square the must try to catch it (can even use the catch skill)

So based on a CORE rule of the game and YOUR example would the player whose actions ends immediately, must use his mandatory bite and/or a skill he may use at the end of his move action (his move action is ended by Tentacles)?

[Cyrus-Havoc]

I can see how you could argue either side of this but to me the key word is not 'end' but 'immediately' which[ implies nothing else happens.

(Dictionary says 'occurring at once, direct, not seperated by others.')

If it just said turn or action ends then it would follow that you now could use HG but immediately to me procludes any and all other usage.

I am not in anyway sure that this is what is intended but if asked to rule in my league I would rule against it unless a clarification is issued.

question:
If you go for it with the ball and trip your turn ends immediately (or other such turnovers), yet the ball bounces and if it bounces in another players square the must try to catch it (can even use the catch skill)

So based on a CORE rule of the game and YOUR example would the player whose actions ends immediately, must use his mandatory bite and/or a skill he may use at the end of his move action (his move action is ended by Tentacles)?

Like I said it is easy to argue for or against.
The bouncing ball is separate to what the Vampire does and is not a part of his action in any way.
The Bite is mandatory as you say so this overrides other considerations.
Neither above possibility’s effects the vampires voluntary skill use, you must remember the use of HG is a choice not a compulsion nor is it a specific declared action.

I am happy to go with either interpretation but I think the rules as written say no HG in this situation.

[GalakStarscraper]

Alamar is correct on this one and his statement about "if I tell you I'm paying you at the end of June" that doesn't mean I will pay you on July 1st.

Hypnotic Gaze is performed "at the end of his Move Action". This means it has to be part of the Move Action. If it was intended to be something used after the action was ended it would read "after the Move Action is ended" not "at the end of his Move Action". Again Alamar's examples are good ... if I say "I'll pay you after June has ended" and "I'll pay you by the end of June" these give two entirely different frames of time.

The turnover rules also give you a good list of the things that can happen when an Action is ended. If an Action is ended then you can only "Make armour and injury rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach may start to take his turn.".

That's it ... nothing in there about using Hypnotic Gaze.

So this one is very clear to me and not grey at all. Successful Tentacles means that Hypnotic Gaze cannot be used.

Galak

[Khail]

Thanks for the clarification Galak. I'll disagree with you on the grammar used (another word or two would have made it crystal clear), but at least we have the designer's intent now

[GalakStarscraper]

Thanks for the clarification Galak. I'll disagree with you on the grammar used (another word or two would have made it crystal clear), but at least we have the designer's intent now

I don't understand how the grammer used is not appropriate.

Page 8 describes what happens when an Action ends immediately ... so that as a baseline you have to tell me how Hypnotic Gaze is allowed to violate that description?

Once you get past that hurdle ... you do agree that there is a difference between "I'll pay you by the end of June" and "I'll pay you after June ends" correct? If you agree that there is a difference between those two ... then how does the grammer of Hypnotic Gaze not match the first statement compared to the second (which it would have to suggest the second for Hypnotic Gaze to be allowed to be used.

Just trying to understand as I don't see the grammer issue with this one at all and I spent hours ... (many many many many hours) ... working on the grammer of the rulebook.

Galak

[Asperon Thorn]

Just trying to understand as I don't see the grammer issue with this one at all and I spent hours ... (many many many many hours) ... working on the grammer of the rulebook.

Galak

Having haggled over some of these with Galak . .I can attest to this

Asperon Thorn

[Khail]

Heh, no slight intended at all Galak - having spent some time trying to write game rules myself I know it's a cause of much hair loss.

I will agree that there is a difference between "I'll pay you by the end of June" and "I'll pay you after June ends". That isn't what's causing the hiccup. The hiccup is that Hypnotic Gaze doesn't say either of those things - it says it happens "at the end". It doesn't care if the action ended immediately or not, just that it is ending. The only way you wouldn't get to do it is if the action didn't end, which it obviously does. P7 under turnovers states that the action ends... there's nothing in that section that would preclude you from using Hypnotic Gaze.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue the grammar when you've clearly stated what the rule is supposed to do.

Also, the game breaks if it doesn't work the way you say it does.

[daloonieshaman]

you still must bite. (or suffer if no thrall)
I missed something...
for this conversation did the ACTION end or the TURN?