Diving Tackle and rerolled Dodges

[RogueThirteen]

Q: An elf attempts to dodge from the TZ of a player that has Diving Tackle. The elf rolls a 3+ (success), and the player declares the use of Diving Tackle, thus converting the dodge into a failure. The elf now uses his or her dodge skill to reroll the Dodge roll: Does the -2 Modifier still apply to the reroll, or has it already been 'spent' on the first roll?

I've asked this question earlier on the boards, and the answer I received was that if Diving Tackle is used to effect a Dodge roll, the -2 penalty will still remain even if the dodge is then rerolled and Diving Tackle has already been declared for the original roll. However, there was some legitimate confusion about this between our leaguemates recently, as the way the rules are written do seem to introduce needless ambiguity:

... The opposing player must subtract 2 from his Dodge roll for leaving the player's tackle zone. ... Diving Tackle may be used on a rerolled dodge if not declared for use on the first Dodge roll. ...

The interpretation some of the members made was that this wording suggested that Diving Tackle could be used on the first roll OR on a reroll, but presumably would not affect more than a single throw of the die. Given the odd wording of the rule that explicitly notes it may be used on a rerolled dodge IF NOT declared for the first Dodge roll, this alternative interpretation seems reasonable to me.

Is there any text in the rules or FAQs that clarify this ambiguity, or is it just the dominant convention of the community? I'm assuming it has something to do with all modifiers in place being preserved during rerolls, but couldn't find anything in the book with another quick look.

Thanks!

[Oxynot]

Q: An elf attempts to dodge from the TZ of a player that has Diving Tackle. The elf rolls a 3+ (success), and the player declares the use of Diving Tackle, thus converting the dodge into a failure. The elf now uses his or her dodge skill to reroll the Dodge roll: Does the -2 Modifier still apply to the reroll, or has it already been 'spent' on the first roll?

...

... The opposing player must subtract 2 from his Dodge roll for leaving the player's tackle zone. ... Diving Tackle may be used on a rerolled dodge if not declared for use on the first Dodge roll. ...

The wording used to be clearer regarding this for example in LRB5:

Diving
Tackle may be used on a re-rolled dodge if not declared for use on the
first Dodge roll. In addition, if Diving Tackle is used on the 1st Dodge roll,
both the -2 modifier and tackle zone still apply to the Dodge re-roll.

The text has changed, but the end effect has not, at least to my knowledge. I am guessing it was changed from LRB5 (placed prone immediately after declaring use) to CRP (placed prone after dodge is fully resolved) to clarify situations when a player would dodge from a TZ to another, but adjacent to the same opponent. In that case the question would be if normal -1 would apply.

So, different text, same effect: if used on first dodge, it affect both, as the modifiers do not change during a reroll. It is fundamentally the same dodge both times after all.

If someone has better information, feel free to interject

[GalakStarscraper]

The key here that a modifier once added to a roll is NEVER removed by the act of re-roll regardless of the roll involved.

Note ... I didn't mention any skill above ... this is an absolute.

Couple examples.

Its still the same roll ... its not a new roll. If a re-roll was a new roll than for example ... if I tried to re-roll a block against a Foul Appearance opponent ... I'd need to roll for Foul Appearance again ... but I don't ... that's because the modifiers of passing Foul Appearance for the first block roll applies to the re-roll as well.

So if I declare the use of Diving Tackle on the 1st roll and you choose to re-roll it than the modifiers that were affecting the first roll also effect the 2nd roll.

The clarification in the skill is to let you know you can choose to use it on a re-rolled result if you didn't use it on the 1st roll which would affect the first roll and any re-rolls that occur.

There is nothing in the Diving Tackle skill that says it overrides the basic rule of modifiers affecting all parts of a roll.

If I use Two Heads on a Dodge roll and succeed but they you use Diving Tackle and I would now fail .. I don't have to declare I'm using Two Heads on the re-roll ... its automatic. This is the exact same case as Diving Tackle automatically effecting both rolls.

Tom

[nick_nameless]

If I use Two Heads on a Dodge roll and succeed but they you use Diving Tackle and I would now fail .. I don't have to declare I'm using Two Heads on the re-roll ... its automatic. This is the exact same case as Diving Tackle automatically effecting both rolls.

Tom

Interesting example, because the text of two heads simply states to add + 1 to all dodge rolls the player makes. I would think a declaration is unnecessary on any roll unless the opponent questions your target number. Sounds more like an "always on" skill than a declare for use skill.

Either way, I'm not arguing your point on Diving Tackle. It makes perfect sense. It's just an odd case because it's a rare instance when you are affecting someone else's roll with an active skill use (as opposed to Disturbing Presence or Prehensile Tail). I think Diving Tackle is the only skill in the game that uses this dynamic, so it's easy to see why people would get confused.

[Pagan]

Interesting example, because the text of two heads simply states to add + 1 to all dodge rolls the player makes.

If the player chooses to use it. If for whatever reason you didn't want to use Two Heads you could decline to. The only time I could see that applying is if you were controlling an opposing player on your turn. A card does something like this though not sure if you get to move him, would have to look it up.

[nick_nameless]

I understand that skill use is not mandatory, but it does not seem to follow the writing of the rules that one must declare the use of two heads, whereas someone must not only declare the use of diving tackle but then they must also be placed prone. Two heads also does not seem to be limited to the one use per turn paradigm.

Either way, I think this is splitting hairs a little. A wasn't disagreeing with Galak (why bother), just noting how I could see someone getting confused.

[Sizzler]

I agree that this is how diving tackle should be used, but is there a specific sentence in the rulebook which states that all modifiers also apply to a re-roll? Given the ambiguity of the wording, if somebody was to question it I wouldn't have a leg to stand on other than saying that a man on the internet said this is how it's supposed to be played.

Thanks.

[Oxynot]

I have not yet had the time to comb through the rulebook for that specific sentence, but you can think of it this way: if they would not apply, then you could not use any
other skill modifiers on the reroll either if you used them on the original roll. Skills like mighty blow, or accurate or..


edit:typos

[GalakStarscraper]

I agree that this is how diving tackle should be used, but is there a specific sentence in the rulebook which states that all modifiers also apply to a re-roll? Given the ambiguity of the wording, if somebody was to question it I wouldn't have a leg to stand on other than saying that a man on the internet said this is how it's supposed to be played.

Thanks.

As stated ... if this was true ... then you could not use Mighty Blow when re-rolling AV with Piling On ... or you could not use Two Heads when re-rolling a Dodge roll ... or Accurate for a re-rolled Pass. If they want to try to stop Diving Tackle ... they'd need to argue to stop all the other times this happens as well.

Tom

[Sizzler]

Mighty blow, accurate etc are one use only skills - you either use it on the first roll or the reroll. Diving tackle is a funny one in that you can use it on the first roll, in order to force a reroll, and then also use it on the reroll, so I don't think we can draw comparisons with other skills. The two heads wording reads as though the skill is always 'turned on' and so there is no debate, whereas the DT entry seems very vague and doesn't seem to articulate the answer it was designed to give very well.

I agree with the ruling, I'm just saying that if somebody pulls me up about it then they'd be perfectly right to do so.

[plasmoid]

Hi Sizzling Gromril,
I think a much better comparison would be to other skills that affect an opponents roll.
Like Prehensile Tail or Disturbing Presence.
I hope nobody would Disturbing Presence forces an elf to fail a catch on a 2, then he'd only need a 2+ on the reroll.
Cheers
Martin

[DoubleSkulls]

I agree that this is how diving tackle should be used, but is there a specific sentence in the rulebook which states that all modifiers also apply to a re-roll? Given the ambiguity of the wording, if somebody was to question it I wouldn't have a leg to stand on other than saying that a man on the internet said this is how it's supposed to be played.

Thanks.

Well there is "Once the dodge is resolved ... the Diving Tackle Player is Placed Prone" so why wouldn't the -2 still apply?

[daloonieshaman]

so by your logic ...
If I pass and get the + 1 for accurate and the +1 for quick snap, I will not get those on a reroll?

[Daht]

Look at it this way, once you commit to using the DT there is a -2 to the roll. Just like any other modifier.. the 2 way DT is unique is:

1) if DT is not needed on the first roll, the DT player can decide to use it on the second

If DT is used on the first roll, do you stand the DT player back up for the second? nope.. once he's committed, the -2 mod is there for both rolls.. even if it's not needed on the reroll, he stays down and the dodger just missed his roll by 2 more.

[Sizzler]

Thanks, Martin. I guess that's a good way to look at it.

so by your logic ...
If I pass and get the + 1 for accurate and the +1 for quick snap, I will not get those on a reroll?

By my logic... no. Either the roll succeeds or it fails. If you need a 4+ to make an accurate pass and roll a 2, you're not going to use accurate to bump it up to a 3, as that still fails. You would obviously reroll it and then use accurate on the reroll, whether that is to turn the roll from a failure to a success or just to avoid a fumble. Even if you elect not to reroll it (for some reason or other) and use accurate on the first roll to avoid a fumble, then the reroll doesn't come into it so it's a mute point.

The reason I asked this is that I noticed on FUMBBL that the -2 was only applied to my opponents first dice roll, not the second. I don't know whether that was a bug or whether that's how FUMBBL plays it, so wanted to arm myself with the means to defend my claim if/when I raised it. I'm with you guys on this - I believe that's how it should be played - all I'm saying is that if somebody were to be mega pissy and call me on it, there is no place in the rules that explicitly states that modifiers from DT apply to rerolls, and on a deeper level not even for things like prehensile tail and whatnot.

Like I say I'm not being a clown here and just trying to start arguements, but forewarned is forearmed. Thanks, all, for your input.