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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:07 am 
mattgslater's court jester

Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:39 pm
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Wrestle IMO is better because it helps protect the rats. Not only does it negate both down. It can:

1. cause a turn over because your opponent thinks you are going to use the skill
2. cause a loss of a reroll for your opponent, who thinks you are going to use the skill
3. After electing to use the skill and both are downed, means less guys hitting you next turn!

OK 1 and 2 are unlikely but 3 is the better outcome. Forcing the opponent to the floor and the player not being able to hit next turn without a blitz.

Wrestle then Fend would be great. But the Wrestle Dauntless is also amusing to get rid of a few ST4 players.

If the linerat does manage to get to 31 pts then we can discuss that then :)

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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Smurf's point 1 and 2 are perfectly valid, imo, but I don't agree that wrestle is significantly better at reducing amount of blocks taken (point 3). When all your linerats fend, there will be noone of the attackers in your TZs on the following turn. That is rarely true if they all had wrestle, in which case at least one attacker (often more) is likely to have followed up.

In the same vein, I'm beginning to think it is a mistake to mix fend and wrestle 1st picks on your linos. If two fend, but the third allow a follow up, you may be able to hit back, sure, but you aren't really accomplishing what you planned by taking fend (keeping out of zones). I suggest 1st picking fend on all three linos as it will have a more pronounced effect than a wrestle/fend mix.

Not saying this is the best way to go, just proposing that we experiement with it as the skill mix doesn't yield the desired results. I have started a FUMBBL skaven team on which I intend to go fend on linerats, and I'd like other (and better) players to try the same.

I'll take the liberty of linking to a post I made on the FUMBBL forum. As you can see form the responses, not everyone agrees that fend is an useful skill.
http://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpB ... c&start=45


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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:21 pm 
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johnnih wrote:

Not saying this is the best way to go, just proposing that we experiement with it as the skill mix doesn't yield the desired results. I have started a FUMBBL skaven team on which I intend to go fend on linerats, and I'd like other (and better) players to try the same. start=45


Quoting this for pure win. I'm really excited to hear how it goes as my Blood Bowl access is very limited at the moment. I agree with your multiple fend philosophy and would add that unskilled linerats go on the line before fenders (I think that was mentioned before in this thread too).

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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:39 am 
Legend
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I think it is worth applying a bit of damage arithmetic to the issue. No doubt the sums are well known, but they bear repeating.
***
(a) If facing an opponent on the line of scrimmage with no blocking skills, Wrestle is a little better than Fend (because of both down results). Applies to 1 in 12 2-dice blocks. However, in practice, unless it is late in the turn, the block may be re-rolled, or if chosen, the Skaven player may choose to take a both down for the turnover (not using Fend).

(b) If facing an opponent on the line of scrimmage with Block, or with Block/M-Blow, Wrestle is quite a bit better than Fend (5/9 chance of knockdown compared to 3/4). On a 2-dice block from a player with Block/M-Blow this means a .1736 chance of leaving the pitch, compared to .2344

(c) If facing an opponent with M-Blow/P-On but no Block (a Mummy for example), Fend is much better than Wrestle (because it prevents P-On being used unless the opponent also has Grab). .2199 chance or leaving the pitch compared to .4113 (on a 3-dice block).

(d) If facing opponents with Block/M-Blow/P-On, Fend and Wrestle are approximately equivalent with a very slight advantage to Fend (.3175 chance of leaving the pitch compared to .3247 on a 2-dice block).
***
I suggest (b) and (d) are the most common once a league is under way, although (c) is perhaps not rare. Length of league and the mix of opponents would be of critical importance.

To this you have to also apply the imponderables of secondary and tertiary blocks (or their denial by Wrestle), and assists on secondary and tertiary blocks (or their denial by Fend).

For me the critical factors are:

(1) Wrestle is used mainly in your own turn (but also in your opponent's), Fend can only be used in your opponent's turn. Fend is a passive skill, Wrestle is active/passive.

(2) Do you want to put precious skilled Linerats on the defensive LoS in the first place?

(3) While Fend is of course much more likely to come into play when blocked, I suggest Wrestle is more likely to come into play in terms of protecting the player (especially since we are talking of AV7 players here). See the above comparisons.

I think we are in general agreement that 3 Linerats on the LoS with Wrestle/Fend would be rather nice (assuming of course, that the team can afford the luxury). So we are arguing mainly about skill order. So by all means go ahead with the Fend first experiment - I am interested to know what happens. My guess is that you will find it costly in terms of attrition, and a little frustrating in terms of your own blocking game. No doubt there will be first turns when the strategy works, though.

All the best.

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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:31 am 
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Thanks for the arithmetic, Smeborg. Not all of those numbers were well known to me.

Smeborg wrote:
(2) Do you want to put precious skilled Linerats on the defensive LoS in the first place?

You both point out that it is preferable to put rookies on the line. So far, I did both. Put rookies up there with damaged one skill linos. Haven't had a total of three fenders yet, but once I have, I will put them there for sake of the experiment. I agree that it may not be optimal.

Smeborg wrote:
(3) While Fend is of course much more likely to come into play when blocked, I suggest Wrestle is more likely to come into play in terms of protecting the player (especially since we are talking of AV7 players here). See the above comparisons.

I agree that the linerat in question would prefer to have wrestle over fend when people are hitting him. With skaven, I want the linerats to protect the rest of the team though, so if he does this better with fend, I want that as 1st skill as he is very expendable.

Smeborg wrote:
I think we are in general agreement that 3 Linerats on the LoS with Wrestle/Fend would be rather nice (assuming of course, that the team can afford the luxury). So we are arguing mainly about skill order. So by all means go ahead with the Fend first experiment - I am interested to know what happens. My guess is that you will find it costly in terms of attrition, and a little frustrating in terms of your own blocking game. No doubt there will be first turns when the strategy works, though.

All the best.

Wrestle/fend is unlikely to happen, yes, hence why the order of skills is so interesting. I think I like how it plays on the line, but I am worried about attrition as you say. Also, the rest of the game may see me wishing I had more wrestle, but I guess time will tell.

I'll report back.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 6:59 am 
Emerging Star
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I like having a few line rats with dirty player and sneaky git (haven't played skaven for a while, but think sneaky git requires a double). Since they're rats I tend to keep one or two cheater rats on the pitch at all times. Kicking opposing players really helps keeping your rats alive, especially when you're giving those big guys a few well placed boots :D

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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:42 pm 
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I played two tabletop seasons with the "Pro" Elves, and I found Fend on the lineman to be an awesome first skill. My linemen rarely made it past one skill and I found Fend to be very effective in providing space for the the lineman if he survived and at least slowed the opponent down if he didn't. It affects more of the dice outcomes than Wrestle/Block or Dodge and since your opponent is likely to have the dice advantage I wanted to have a skill that provided the most use. I think Fend as a first skill on your LOS players is great.


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 Post subject: Re: A Case for 1st Pick Fend on Skaven Linerats
 Post Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 7:29 pm 
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The reason I'm so keen to see it on Skaven is that they don't have the AG or AG access to even attempt to dodge away very well. It's promising to hear you had success with fend on the pro-elves.

I would really love to hear from people trying it out on Skaven though!

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