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 Post subject: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:42 pm 
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Hi

I have been off the game for a couple of year (10) or so or even more. I have wanted to come back for long but never had a community, so never really played any games

Now I'm organizing my clubs league, since I have managed to get people interested in the game, and some new members already knew how to play.

I have read a lot about this skills.

Wrestle
fend
guard
tackle
strip ball

I can see the reasoned in tackle to take down dodging players, or to make them not dodge

Strip ball gives you another 33% of making them drop the ball

Guard to always be able to assist.

But wrestle and fend? are they that big a deal? have red about wrestle a lot to take the ball back, but it really is no better.

Are they that big deal?

thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Fend comes in really handy on linemen when defending against ClawPOMB teams.

What's ClawPOMB? Search it...it won't be hard to find. :wink:

Wrestle I've never found very much use for except in very specific instances. I typically give it to a ball striker that doesn't have block (never stack it with block, it's pointless TV bloat). But if you give someone wrestle -> tackle -> strip ball they have an 83.33% chance of dislodging the ball on a 1d block, and that's without a re-roll (provided the opponent doesn't have sure hands to negate SB). Even if he does though, wrestle and tackle (wrackle) will give you a 50% chance to dislodge on a 1d block against without re-roll. You will typically find this on catchers and ghouls that coaches are using as ball strikers.


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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:44 pm 
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why the would yo take wrestle instead of block? thats what i don't understand

I have found topics about ClawPOMB but not the description :S


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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Wrestle doesn't end your turn, so can be quite useful: Ball carrier opponent has sure hands and you wrestle him down on "both down"... instead of ending your turn with both on the ground, you can sweep in and scoop up the ball....

Wrestle somewhat negates the block-spammers.... Beware of doing so too much as big holes may become available for their offense to exploit.... By the same token, if you need a hole in their defense/cage, a wrestler just might do the trick....

Wrestle keeps you from taking damage from a both-down result as you are placed down and not blocked down....

Fend increases your mobility.... It also decreases the mobility of your opponent.... If your opponent cannot follow up, he has trouble with using Frenzy and Piling On.... Exploitation of your line may also be a problem for your opponent as his own line cannot advance through blocking....

Just some food for thought....

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:02 am 
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kaintxu wrote:
why the would yo take wrestle instead of block? thats what i don't understand

I have found topics about ClawPOMB but not the description :S


Ok, take the example of one past thread: Wrestle Zombie vs Chaos Warrior.... Wrestle Zombie kept that valuable piece on the ground time after time.... That's 40k of rubber zed tyeing up over twice its value... AND limiting that CW to one space after getting up unless willing to try gfi's.... Also takes away the ability to dodge away from the zombie w/o gfi's.... It's not vastly superior to block, or anything, just a different paradigm to be taken advantage of....

Claw treats armor 8-10 as armor 7.... Mighty Blow adds one to either armor break/injury... Piling On allows an armor reroll.... So, two tries to break armor on an 8... or, if armor already a 7, two tries to break armor on a 7.... The high armor boys and the prissy elves HATE that stuff....

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:27 am 
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Digger Goreman wrote:
kaintxu wrote:
why the would yo take wrestle instead of block? thats what i don't understand

I have found topics about ClawPOMB but not the description :S


Ok, take the example of one past thread: Wrestle Zombie vs Chaos Warrior.... Wrestle Zombie kept that valuable piece on the ground time after time.... That's 40k of rubber zed tyeing up over twice its value... AND limiting that CW to one space after getting up unless willing to try gfi's.... Also takes away the ability to dodge away from the zombie w/o gfi's.... It's not vastly superior to block, or anything, just a different paradigm to be taken advantage of....

Claw treats armor 8-10 as armor 7.... Mighty Blow adds one to either armor break/injury... Piling On allows an armor reroll.... So, two tries to break armor on an 8... or, if armor already a 7, two tries to break armor on a 7.... The high armor boys and the prissy elves HATE that stuff....


Ok so on that same case, the zombie with block will be throwing the chaos warrior to the floor every turn, and also rolling for armor, instead of both just going to ground.

Oh, ok POMB are skill abbreviations, fine. still, claw against AV7 is no better than no claw.

I was thinking on block, POMB my black orcs. Any good?


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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:20 am 
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Digger's wasn't the best example (also the CW would be able to move 2 squares away, not one).

Consider a Wrestle Zombie vs a Block CW would be a better one. Zombie for 60K vs 120k for the CW. If both had Block, they'd stay standing, the CW still exerts a TZ,and if you wanted the Zombie elsewhere, they'd have to Dodge. Using Wrestle, the Zombie can move away, and the CW has lost it's TZ.

I wouldn't take Wrestle over Block across a full team, but having a couple of players with it can open up gaps that Block might not.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:10 am 
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Darkson wrote:
I wouldn't take Wrestle over Block across a full team, but having a couple of players with it can open up gaps that Block might not.

Amazons, Elves and Skaven play well with lots of Wrestlers, it's a cheap way of dealing with blodgers ball carriers when you lack/can't get Tackle, and for a fragile player it's better to end on the pitch with Wrestle than suffering a lot of chain blocks with Block until he's knocked down.
Wrestle is very good against Block-heavy teams such as Dwarfs, Norse and Chaos Dwarfs.
Dwarfs generally speaking prefer Both down against a Block player than a Wrestle player, because the latter puts them on the ground and makes them lose movement and tackle zones.

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Last edited by MattDakka on Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:32 am 
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Darkson wrote:
Digger's wasn't the best example (also the CW would be able to move 2 squares away, not one).


Agreed.... My future "head coach" (French Lady with impeccable taste!) had me distracted.... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:54 pm 
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The wrestle or block debate comes down to what you want your players to do.

Block is much better early on since if your opponent doesn’t have block or wrestle then you can hurt him. It is also more useful on roadblock players. So it’s a tricky decision which skill to give to a zombie as they are slow so if you wrestle an opponent to the ground in your turn then they can get up move away from you. But wrestle does make getting opposing players prone so you can foul them.

If you want to make holes in your opponents defence or sack ball carriers then wrestle is great so you tend to see more of it on agile teams like elves. They usually block for positional gain rather than to damage so it is of more benefit to them. I’d advise not going overboard though with elves since it makes you a worse ball carrier which is a great strength of AG4 teams.

Fend is a useful but not great skill, it is one of those middling skills that is just about worth the TV, but rather situational. If your league is piling on and frenzy happy it is useful, it also works well on low or average AG wimpy player like human or skaven linemen. Not having to dodge to get away from bashy opposing players is really useful for them.

Also there is a consideration of how much you want to spend TV wise on LOS players. Fend and wrestle (plus dodge and possibly sidestep on elves) can make them pretty annoying. But they are still free hits to the nastiest players the other team can bring so you may be better using that TV to build strong positional players and using cheap rookies on the LOS.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:39 pm 
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wrestle on gobbos to get players down and then foul after :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:46 pm 
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kaintxu - Wrestle is a really useful skill, one of the best skills in the game, but not a universal one. I give it to players who are able to attack the ball directly. It becomes more useful at low odds, for example a 1-die block or a 2-die block opponent chooses. It combines well with Tackle, and works best on very mobile players when you have a team re-roll in hand.

Here are some of the players to whom I give Wrestle:

Slann Linefrogs (they can leap into the cage, I also give them Tackle and/or Strip Ball)
Pro-Elf Catchers (MA8, AG4, I give them Dodge first)
Witch Elves (MA7, AG4, Frenzy, Dodge, Jump-Up)
Underworld Gobbos (on a doubles, and I also give them 2-Heads, Horns, so that they can attack the caged ball)
Ghouls

There are plenty of teams on which I do not give Wrestle to anybody (many of the bash teams).

I see Wrestle as less useful passively (when a player is blocked), as the odds of Wrestle coming into play are much lower. I see it mainly as an active skill for hunting the ball.

Hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Wrestle
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Yes think of wrestle as a specific option like stripball. When you need to get round and therefore take down a stand firm block high st player, wrestle opens a new option

Wrestle is able to create holes in a solid wall. Block on mass gives the solid wall so therefore a handful of wrestlers can block and make a gap that a block on block defense can't offer

Try it on skaven vs dwarf as a practice maybe. Also a 40k rotter with wrestle now at 60k value can take down a 120k war dancer with wrestle. You then have the option to foul it:)

Fend is pretty poor. It's a great 3rd or 4th skill on anything that's not st4 or 5. Situations with block dodge Ss can be amazing with fend. But an Orc linemen with fend for a first skill is not very good. Fend can stop pile on, so it's an option for high rating teams to protect your stars.

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