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 Post subject: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:32 pm 
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Hello everybody.
Is it possible to use dump-off skill when a player attemps to stab you?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:39 pm 
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I don't think you can. Dump Off takes effect when your player is blocked - but Stab states that you choose to make a stabbing attack instead of throwing a block.

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:20 pm 
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I would say you can Dump Off when Stabbed. And the same when hit by a 'saw.

Though I am curious to see how others read it....

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:03 pm 
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howlinggriffon wrote:
I don't think you can. Dump Off takes effect when your player is blocked - but Stab states that you choose to make a stabbing attack instead of throwing a block.


agreed.

Quote:
Dump-Off (Passing)
This skill allows the player to make a Quick Pass when an opponent declares that he will throw a block at him, allowing the player to get rid of the ball before he is hit.


Quote:
Stab (Extraordinary)
A player with this skill is armed with something very good at stabbing, slashing or hacking up an opponent, like sharp fangs or a trusty dagger. This player may attack an opponent with his stabbing attack instead of throwing a block. Make an unmodified Armour roll (except for Stakes) for the victim. If the score is less than or equal to the victim’s Armour value
then the attack has no effect. If the score beats the victim’s Armour value then he has been wounded and an Injury roll must be made. This Injury roll ignores all modifiers from any source-including Niggling injuries. If Stab is used as part of a
Blitz Action, the player cannot continue moving after using it. Casualties caused by a stabbing attack do not count for
Star Player points.


Hilariously enough with the current wording Amazons would not be able to use Dump Off and no one can use Dump off against Amazons. Clearly shows this is a male only skill :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:14 pm 
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Both Stab and chainsaw actions replace a block action. So therefore you can dump off before the 'block'.

So the sequence is:

Blitz/Block action declared, decision whether to Dump Off and then block action takes place with the substituted stab or chainsaw.


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 Post subject: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:05 am 
Legend
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Interesting take, Nichren. I'm inclined to agree with that as the strict application.

Whether or not it's the intention, of course, I couldn't say.

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:28 am 
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Yeah ShteveO thats how I see it. But I'm hoping Babs or Tom will come by and confirm.


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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:54 am 
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Given that (I'm fairly sure) you can use Stab as part of frenzy (i.e. do one block, get an unfavourable push, so stab) or multi-block, I would imagine that Nichren's interpretation is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:10 am 
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Nichren wrote:
Both Stab and chainsaw actions replace a block action. So therefore you can dump off before the 'block'.

So the sequence is:

Blitz/Block action declared, decision whether to Dump Off and then block action takes place with the substituted stab or chainsaw.

But it says "block" not "Block Action". The two terms are not interchangable.

Dump off can only be used when a player declares he will throw a block.
Stab (and chainsaw) are used instead of throwing (stab) or making (chainsaw) a block.

The question is, do you declare you are throwing a block (as opposed to a Block Action) and then say it will be substituted with Stab/Chainsaw? If yes, then Dump Off can be used. If no then it cannot.
Furthermore, is there a difference between throwing and making a block? If so, Dump Off could be used against Stab but not Chainsaw.

It's not exactly clear, but my suspicion is that the intent is to allow Dump Off to work against these skills.


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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:27 am 
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Yeah, I agree with the 'Dump Off can be used against Stab and Chainsaw'.

As i see it Dump Off works against the 'block', both stab and chainsaw replace the 'block'. So if there is no 'block' neither stab or chainsaw can replace it. Therefore there must be a 'block' for Dump Off to react to.

I can see the semantic agruement of... is a players 'declaring' a block and is a 'throwing a block' the same as a 'making a block' but to be honest that sort of 'Rules Lawyering' and weaselese langanuge is what makes me reluctant to get back into 40K (please substitute your local game of choice for Rules Lawyers and Bearded F*ckwits).

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:33 am 
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Dode why aren't Block action and block interchangeable? There are only 5 actions to be declared for each player (mini) in the game, pass, hand off, move, block, and blitz (combo move and block). I don't see block and block action as two separate orders/declarations.


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 Post subject: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:39 am 
Legend
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They are. It's unfortunate, but it is in the same way that making a pass and taking a pass action are distinct - one can declare a pass action without actually attempting a pass, and the same applies to a block action.

Becomes relevant particularly around Wild Animal rolls, as an example (you can declare a block, roll 2+ to activate, then not throw the block).

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Last edited by Shteve0 on Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:41 am 
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Quote:
Dode why aren't Block action and block interchangeable?
The rulebook is (usually) quite clear on which is relevant at what time. Multiple Block is a perfect example of why the two are not interchangeable: it can only be used on a Block Action but not on a Blitz Action. Both Actions involve a block, but only on one of those Actions can we use Multiple Block.
And you forgot Hand-off and Foul ;)

I agree that looking too closely at woring would be rules lawyering, but without an indication from someone who knows then it's what we appear to be reduced to.


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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 am 
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The 'Block Action' is the action e.g. player says I delare a 'Block Action' he then rolls Bone Head for an ogre which succeeds, he doesn't then have to make the 'block'.

Same with the 'Blitz Action' this is a 'move' and 'block'; for the blitz action you could do one, both or neither of the 'move' and 'block' sections.

You are correct, what dode is trying to say is that 'block' and 'Block Action' mean differnt things in the contect of rules/skills not that there is an additional choice (on a side note you can also declare a foul so not just five)

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 Post subject: Re: Dump-off vs Stab
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:49 am 
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Nichren wrote:
There are only 5 actions to be declared for each player (mini) in the game, pass, hand off, move, block, and blitz (combo move and block).

6 - foul.

As for the question, I'd allow it, whether a strict reading of it allows it or not, or whether the intention was to allow it or not.
The way I see it, you declare the Block action (or Blitz action, then move into contact) - that's when Dump Off kicks in. It's at that point you decide whether to throw the block (roll the dice) or use Stab, or you use the chainsaw (seeing as there's no choice on that).

dode74 wrote:
And you forgot Hand-off and Foul ;)

Foul yes, hand-off no.

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