Chainsaws and fouling

[dode74]

Couldn't see an answer to this when I searched, so here goes:

Chainsaw declares a foul and fails the kickback roll. Roll on AV is double 1. Does the player get sent off?

[Thul]

Could definitely use some clarification. My interpretation is that <skill> rolls are separate from <action> rolls. The ref is tied to the AV rolls from the <action>. An AV roll resulting from failed kickback is part of the <skill>. The ref shouldn't care about that roll anymore than an AV roll from a failed GFI during a Foul action.

[Toffer]

Could definitely use some clarification. My interpretation is that <skill> rolls are separate from <action> rolls. The ref is tied to the AV rolls from the <action>. A AV roll resulting from failed kickback is part of the <skill>. The ref shouldn't care about that roll anymore than an AV roll from a failed GFI during a Foul action.

That's how I would interpret it as well

[dode74]

I can see it either way.

For the kickback to happen the prone player must have been hit with the chainsaw, which means a foul did take place which the ref may have spotted, regardless of the fact that the foul went badly wrong and hit the wielder. I can see this being different to the GFI case because the foul has not happened until the GFIs are passed.

In game mechanics terms, I'd say you declare the Foul Action, then move the player (including GFIs), then declare the target of the foul (meaning the foul is happening now), then roll for kickback and AV.
You can declare a Foul Action and roll GFIs without making a foul, but you cannot declare a Foul Action and make a kickback roll unless the foul is made. The kickback roll is intrinsically tied to the foul itself taking place (rather than simple declaring the Foul Action).

[Digger Goreman]

Don't have the rules in front of me, but I believe the ref triggers on the OPPONENT's armor breaking....

[dode74]

Doesn't specify. It just says "if the armour roll..."

[Thul]

I think the rules are referring to the opponent's armor roll since the previous section is discussing that specific roll.

Regardless, I see Dode's point as well. I was looking at it from a pure BB rules mechanic standpoint, but the real world definition of kickback does dictate it must have hit something (in this case fouling the opponent).

I still think my original interpretation is correct from a pure rules standpoint, and this is one of those cases where rules mechanics don't always follow real world logic, but there is something to be said for common sense rulings, too

[Sandwich]

If you fail kickback, presumably your opponent would be rolling the AV dice instead of you.

Not sure if that makes any difference (don't have the rules to check wording)? But I'd personally go with it not being a sending off.

[Loki]

If you fail kickback, presumably your opponent would be rolling the AV dice instead of you.

I have seen it both ways for Kickback (and failed TTM landings and OFAB's rolls) sometime the player rolls the armour for their own player sometimes the opponent does; I have wondered in the past, do different groups do this differently or is it just driven by an individual coaches preference: I don't think our club has a particular preference.

[daloonieshaman]

the wording for kickback says your opponent rolls your A/I

[dode74]

• Chainsaw (Extraordinary)
  A player armed with a chainsaw must attack with it instead of making a
  block as part of a Block or Blitz Action. When the chainsaw is used to
  make an attack, roll a D6 instead of the Block dice. On a roll of 2 or more
  the chainsaw hits the opposing player, but on a roll of 1 it ‘kicks back’
  and hits the wielder instead! Make an Armour roll for the player hit by the
  chainsaw, adding 3 to the score. If the roll beats the victim’s Armour
  value then the victim is Knocked Down and injured – roll on the Injury
  table. If the roll fails to beat the victim’s Armour value then the attack has
  no effect. A player armed with a chainsaw may take a Foul Action, and
  adds 3 to the Armour roll, but must roll for kick back as described above.
  A running chainsaw is a dangerous thing to carry around, so if a player
  holding a chainsaw is Knocked Down for any reason, the opposing
  coach is allowed to add 3 to his Armour roll to see if the player was
  injured. However, blocking a player with a chainsaw is equally
  dangerous! If an opponent knocks himself over when blocking the
  chainsaw player then add 3 to his Armour roll. This skill may only be
  used once per turn (e.g., cannot be used with Frenzy or Multiple Block)
  and if used as part of a Blitz Action, the player cannot continue moving
  after using it. Casualties caused by a chainsaw player do not count for
  Star Player points.

I don't see it saying that, dls. The opposing coach rolls if the saw is knocked down, but he isn't on a chainsaw block or foul. In fact, the wording for kickback suggests to me that it is the chainsaw's coach who rolls regardless of who is hit.

[daloonieshaman]

Lol
D74
You bold it in your text
If the saw is knocked down for any reason the opposing catch rolls

[Shteve0]

Also, the chainsaw rules say on a 2+ the chainsaw hits the opponent but on a 1 it kicks back and hits the weilder *instead*. Pretty clear to my eye; no foul takes place, no sending off.

[lunchmoney]

Lol
D74
You bold it in your text
If the saw is knocked down for any reason the opposing catch rolls

But you aren't Knocked Down when you roll a 1, you are only Knocked Down when the armour roll succeeds. So by the time you are Knocked Down the armour roll has already been made.

[dode74]

Lol
D74
You bold it in your text
If the saw is knocked down for any reason the opposing catch rolls

What lunchmoney said. You're not knocked down on a kickback.

Also, the chainsaw rules say on a 2+ the chainsaw hits the opponent but on a 1 it kicks back and hits the weilder *instead*. Pretty clear to my eye; no foul takes place, no sending off.

The chainsaw has to hit something to kick back off of. These things don't actually have a life of their own The only thing it can kick back off is the target or the ground, and in either case a foul has been attempted for that to happen.