Register    Login    Forum    FAQ

Board index » Blood Bowl » Skills & Traits Queries




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 285 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:22 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
Regash - this is what I mean about the fallacy that designers are perfect. You are also saying that if the designers meant for it to be that way then there is no way that it cannot be broken. But design mistakes are made all the time where an aspect that meets the criteria in one department results in breakages in other unforseen areas. This is what we are encountering. Whilst Galak may have forseen that the rules result in a 58% depitching after a knockdown he has not forseen all the consequences of that rule. You are claiming that because one aspect was met that the entire design is perfect. That is not necessarily true, and I believe that my opening statement reflects that.


Dode - I notice that you change your definition again. Appeals to Authority are not about who has the power to decide things. After all their have been plenty of people with the power to do things that have made a horrible job of it. You have failed for 16 pages now to put even the smallest dent in my reasoning of why ClawPOMB is broken. I have shown that your stats are dodgy. I have shown that your definitions are dodgy. I have shown that your deferment to the creators of the rules as being infallible because they created the rules is dodgy.


All of the main arguments against ClawPOMB being broken can be summarised as:

Darkson : ClawPOMB is only broken where it exists.
Dode : The game creators are perfect.
VoodooMike : Angry Rant.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:25 pm 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23526
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
Wulfyn wrote:
Darkson : ClawPOMB is only broken where it exists.

That's a pretty big jump, seeing as I've never said that.


But hey, continue to make up stuff if it makes you feel better about yourself and your lack of rational arguments.

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:30 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
Darkson wrote:
Wulfyn wrote:
Darkson : ClawPOMB is only broken where it exists.

That's a pretty big jump, seeing as I've never said that.


But hey, continue to make up stuff if it makes you feel better about yourself and your lack of rational arguments.



You say that ClawPOMB is not broken except in longer running leagues and that is the fault of the environment and not the skill combination. So basically you said exactly that multiple times.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:38 pm 
Da Spammer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:04 pm
Posts: 23526
Location: Fundamentaling for the BB Illuminati
Wulfyn wrote:
You say that ClawPOMB is not broken except in longer running leagues and that is the fault of the environment and not the skill combination. So basically you said exactly that multiple times.

1. I said it "might" be a problem in MM.
2. Both of which are different to what you said in your first post on this page.

Keep going.

_________________
SWTC 2017 Stunty Cup winner - never again (until next time!)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 7:42 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
So why do you think that there may be a problem in MM?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:09 pm 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 420
Wulfyn wrote:
It is a toss up between which I find the most perplexing. That you believe that designers are perfect, that you think that ANOVA is the right metric to do your stats testing (pro tip: it really is not), or that you think that Appeals to Authority can ever be valid (they are always fallacious).

I quite enjoy the fact that you declare appeals to authority to be universally fallacious in the same sentence that you yourself make an appeal to authority by declaring someone else's choice of methodology to be incorrect without supporting it. Your self-awareness is at an all time low today, Wulfyn.

That said, declaring a target range for values and finding that the distribution overlaps them is not an ANOVA - that implies that the distributions all fall within the critical range for one another, which is NOT the case with Blood Bowl rosters... not even those that do fall within the BBRC's target ranges. ANOVA is not a metric it is a method.

Gotta say.. I'd hoped for better after all the time you spent regrouping.

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Wed May 25, 2016 10:48 pm 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2430
Location: Near Reading, UK
Wulfyn wrote:
Dode - I notice that you change your definition again. Appeals to Authority are not about who has the power to decide things. After all their have been plenty of people with the power to do things that have made a horrible job of it.
I have not changed my definition, you've clearly not understood it. Someone else called it an appeal to authority, and I agreed it was an appeal to an authority, but the authority in this case was valid as it was power, not expertise, which gave them that authority.
"Horrible job" is subjective. Again.
Quote:
You have failed for 16 pages now to put even the smallest dent in my reasoning of why ClawPOMB is broken. I have shown that your stats are dodgy. I have shown that your definitions are dodgy. I have shown that your deferment to the creators of the rules as being infallible because they created the rules is dodgy.
Laughable!
Quote:
All of the main arguments against ClawPOMB being broken can be summarised as:

Darkson : ClawPOMB is only broken where it exists.
Dode : The game creators are perfect.
VoodooMike : Angry Rant.
First, I've said nothing of the sort. Second, you repeating the strawman will not make it either true or what I am actually saying.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 12:50 am 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
VoodooMike wrote:
Wulfyn wrote:
It is a toss up between which I find the most perplexing. That you believe that designers are perfect, that you think that ANOVA is the right metric to do your stats testing (pro tip: it really is not), or that you think that Appeals to Authority can ever be valid (they are always fallacious).

I quite enjoy the fact that you declare appeals to authority to be universally fallacious in the same sentence that you yourself make an appeal to authority by declaring someone else's choice of methodology to be incorrect without supporting it. Your self-awareness is at an all time low today, Wulfyn.

That said, declaring a target range for values and finding that the distribution overlaps them is not an ANOVA - that implies that the distributions all fall within the critical range for one another, which is NOT the case with Blood Bowl rosters... not even those that do fall within the BBRC's target ranges. ANOVA is not a metric it is a method.

Gotta say.. I'd hoped for better after all the time you spent regrouping.


That's not an appeal to authority. I am not saying that you should listen to me because I am right about stats, I am saying that anyone who knows how to use ANOVA will know that it won't work for that sot of test because the conditions for the use of that test is not met. ANOVA is a great method in the right circumstances, and a terrible method in the wrong one.

Tell me, do you think dode's use of ANOVA is appropriate in this circumstance?


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 12:56 am 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
dode74 wrote:
Wulfyn wrote:
Dode - I notice that you change your definition again. Appeals to Authority are not about who has the power to decide things. After all their have been plenty of people with the power to do things that have made a horrible job of it.
I have not changed my definition, you've clearly not understood it. Someone else called it an appeal to authority, and I agreed it was an appeal to an authority, but the authority in this case was valid as it was power, not expertise, which gave them that authority.
"Horrible job" is subjective. Again.
Quote:
You have failed for 16 pages now to put even the smallest dent in my reasoning of why ClawPOMB is broken. I have shown that your stats are dodgy. I have shown that your definitions are dodgy. I have shown that your deferment to the creators of the rules as being infallible because they created the rules is dodgy.
Laughable!
Quote:
All of the main arguments against ClawPOMB being broken can be summarised as:

Darkson : ClawPOMB is only broken where it exists.
Dode : The game creators are perfect.
VoodooMike : Angry Rant.
First, I've said nothing of the sort. Second, you repeating the strawman will not make it either true or what I am actually saying.


Dode - Are you saying that people in power are right because they are in power?

You have repeatedly said that the game cannot be broken because the game designers designed it that way. That necessarily means that the game designers cannot have made mistakes. If you accept that game designers can make mistakes then you will have to accept that a game can still be broken despite one metric of the game designer being hit. You cannot have both as they contradict. So which is it?

Either game designers can design a broken mechanic, in which case your claim that it cannot be broken because it was designed that way is not valid. Or game designers cannot design a broken mechanic in which case they are perfect.

Pick one.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:57 am 
Emerging Star
Emerging Star
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:03 am
Posts: 420
Wulfyn wrote:
That's not an appeal to authority.

Any time you say "this is how it is" or "this is not how it is" without qualifying your statement you're expecting people to take you at your word, which in turn is you implying that you are in a position whereby people should take you at your word without your needing to explain yourself. That's an appeal to authority.

Wulfyn wrote:
I am not saying that you should listen to me because I am right about stats, I am saying that anyone who knows how to use ANOVA will know that it won't work for that sot of test because the conditions for the use of that test is not met. ANOVA is a great method in the right circumstances, and a terrible method in the wrong one.

How do you not see what you're saying? You say "I'm not saying you should listen to me because I'm right, but everyone who is right agrees with me". You're very specifically saying what you start out claiming you're not saying.

Wulfyn wrote:
Tell me, do you think dode's use of ANOVA is appropriate in this circumstance?

Other than having to go back 9 pages to even find the reference since you're allergic to appropriate quotation... I don't object to the use of ANOVA and subsequent post-hoc testing for investigating differences in a series of environments, or looking at differences between two groups of datasets. He didn't have to "prove" anything about them, it's simply a way of exploring the relationships between the sets.

If I was concerned with the methodology I'd explain why and suggest alternative methodologies. If I believe the conclusions were incorrect I'd test the data myself with the methods I believed were appropriate. You seem interested in nothing but shouting "nuh uh!" and implying that your "nuh uh" makes your opinion the preferred source of information on the topic. You want to shout Dode down... do better than he did. I'm looking forward to seeing you put your money where your mouth endlessly is.

_________________
Image


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:18 am 
Da Cynic
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 7461
Location: Nice Red Uniforms and Fanatical devotion to the Pope!
This has ceased to be about Clawpomb really

It has just become about Wulfyn and whether or not he can convince anyone that he knows something better than VM or Dode

At the end of the day the lone voice shouting at the sky that rain is broken because it is wet for humans but ignoring that it is perfect for the grass is what it is... A lone voice

The grass knows that rain is sometimes harmful but overall welcomes it because it does what it was intended to do

Do you play in a tabletop league Wulfyn, is it a problem there?

_________________
Image
Ikterus wrote:
But for the record, play Voyagers_UK if you have the chance. He's cursed! :P


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:10 am 
Ex-Cyanide/Focus toadie

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 5:55 pm
Posts: 2430
Location: Near Reading, UK
Wulfyn wrote:
Dode - Are you saying that people in power are right because they are in power?

You have repeatedly said that the game cannot be broken because the game designers designed it that way. That necessarily means that the game designers cannot have made mistakes. If you accept that game designers can make mistakes then you will have to accept that a game can still be broken despite one metric of the game designer being hit. You cannot have both as they contradict. So which is it?

Either game designers can design a broken mechanic, in which case your claim that it cannot be broken because it was designed that way is not valid. Or game designers cannot design a broken mechanic in which case they are perfect.

Pick one.
As far as a game goes the designers are right because they are in power. If they design a mechanic and are content that it meets the design criteria they set for the game then it is not broken. Your non sequitur is the contention that it makes them "perfect". It is simply means that the authority rests in them to define what "broken" is and is not. If you don't like that definition then it's simply that you don't like it, not that it is broken by any metric other than your own, and since you have zero authority over the game your own metric counts for naught.

What you are talking about is external validation, and that's merely a matter of whether you like it or not: entirely subjective. That external validation is where game designers make what we call "mistakes", but those "mistakes" are deemed such only by people who don't like the mechanics in question. Ageing is an example: it wasn't a mistake (because it worked), but it wasn't generally liked. The designers of LRB5 took that into consideration (which is their decision) and one of their own design goals for LRB5 was to remove ageing, which they did. They didn't have to, it wasn't broken per se, but they chose to because, as the game designers they had the power to do so. Thing is, some people liked ageing, so those people probably saw the removal of ageing as a mistake. When they say that what they are really saying is "I would do it differently". Which is fine, but they aren't the people in whom power is vested to make those decisions.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:12 am 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:22 pm
Posts: 267
Location: Melbourne, Australia
voyagers_uk wrote:
It has just become about Wulfyn and whether or not he can convince anyone that he knows something better than VM or Dode

And that's the crux. Wulfyn has utterly failed to convince anybody that ClPOMB is broken. Sure, plenty of people out there agree with him, but the 'arguments' presented haven't swayed anybody. Wulfyn, either you haven't got the proof that it is broken, or you haven't got the communication skills to convince people it is.

Wulfyn, you know what might convince on some of your points? Show numeric evidence that, as you say, ClPOMB takes skill out of the game. Show us evidence that when people use ClPOMB, their ability is irrelevant. Shouldn't be too hard. Find data of two groups of people: those whose records are poor overall, those whose records are good overall. Then show how when both groups of players use ClPOMB, the win ratios become the same. If you can't do that, you're not going to convince anybody that:
Wulfyn wrote:
1. There is no player skill counter to ClawPOMB.
and
Quote:
3. Mirror matches are luck.


As for
Wulfyn wrote:
5. It removes the entertainment from the game.
... this one is hard to prove. But if you could show enough people answer the following question in the affirmative - Does ClPOMB remove all the fun from the game? - then perhaps I could agree with you that most people believe your argument is true. Until you do... you don't come close to having proof.

You would of course need to do a lot more for your proof to be comprehensive enough to stand up to scrutiny, but at least this would be a start. So far, you've done nothing but state what you believe, which does nothing towards your belief that
Wulfyn wrote:
...the burden of proof is on me to demonstrate my case.


Get out there, collect the data, and demonstrate how it supports your case.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:24 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 12:09 pm
Posts: 1464
Location: Frankfurt, Germany
Wulfyn wrote:
Regash - this is what I mean about the fallacy that designers are perfect. You are also saying that if the designers meant for it to be that way then there is no way that it cannot be broken. But design mistakes are made all the time where an aspect that meets the criteria in one department results in breakages in other unforseen areas. This is what we are encountering. Whilst Galak may have forseen that the rules result in a 58% depitching after a knockdown he has not forseen all the consequences of that rule. You are claiming that because one aspect was met that the entire design is perfect. That is not necessarily true, and I believe that my opening statement reflects that.

I still don't see how you can call something, that was designed to do a certain thing and doest that as intended, broken.
Broken is the definition of "not working as intended" and that is simply not true.

And why are you always talking about perfection? Will there be "perfect" rules? No, there won't. Because there will always be someone who doesn't like this or that aspect. But as long as majority things it's good, why change it? So live with it or house rule it. Oh, I see... Online play... Cyanide won't house rule it for you? Damn! Well, go buy a pitch, some minis and some dice. That should solve the problem as you now can house rule it but won't have to as there is now no problem anymore.

Anyway, the whole of Blood Bowl, including the rules, was designed to be a tabletop game. Are you using it as a tabletop game? No, you're using it in an environment that nobody has every thought off when the game was designed. If you are using tools, that were designed to be used in your workshop, now under water and they don't work, then what is broken? The tool? Or the environment? Or you, using someting for what is never was designed for? And yes, obviously Online BB is different or we wouldn't see that most TTer don't see a problem with CPOMB.

I won't answer in this thread anymore. All these discussions just made me think even more that CPOMB isn't the problem but the players are.
Over and out.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 7:42 am 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 10:33 pm
Posts: 235
dode wrote:
As far as a game goes the designers are right because they are in power.


And this is where I say you are making a fallacious argument. Being in power does not make you right. You'd not accept that argument in any other circumstance.


voyager_uk wrote:
A lone voice


If you think that my analysis is incorrect, why don't you engage with the argument? It doesn't matter whether my voice is a lone voice or an overwhelming majority, because arguments should be able to stand up for themselves no matter who or how many people are saying it. Given that this thread was started specifically for me to engage Darkson and VoodooMike (and now dode) in this debate why should it be surprising that it is our discussions that are dominating it?

So far nobody has been able to successfully challenge the opening post. VoodooMike just insults people. Dode uses statistics badly and has backed himself into a corner of the games designers are right because they are in power, and Darkson thinks that ClawPOMB is not a problem in the environment it was created for when that environment hardly ever sees it. On that point I am in a TT league, and ClawPOMB has not been an issue there, as far as I can see, because the seasons are only 10 to 12 games long and no team has chance to develop it.

Tell me, do you think that dode is right when he says that the games designers must be right because they are in power?


VoodooMike wrote:
Any time you say "this is how it is" or "this is not how it is" without qualifying your statement you're expecting people to take you at your word,


This is not my word. I didn't make up where you can and cannot use ANOVA. There are plenty of much cleverer people than me out there who invented it, and a bit of research will give you the answer. I've tried explaining statistics to you before Mike, and I was just met with hostility, because that is your stock response to anything you don't like to hear.

Back many pages ago I showed the teams that had a significant increase in win %age according to my testing. Dode just dismissed it, as even though he agreed that CDs had a win %age in excess of what was expected he refused to believe this test. This is why he has largely abandoned his statistical approach in favour of games designers are right because they are in power.

Tell me Mike, do you believe that games designers are right because they are in power?


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 285 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19  Next

Board index » Blood Bowl » Skills & Traits Queries


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to: