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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:05 am 
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And this is where I say you are making a fallacious argument. Being in power does not make you right. You'd not accept that argument in any other circumstance.
I'd accept it in any circumstance where someone is creating something according to their own criteria, which is precisely what the game designers are doing. If I don't like what they've created then that's solely down to me.
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Back many pages ago I showed the teams that had a significant increase in win %age according to my testing. Dode just dismissed it, as even though he agreed that CDs had a win %age in excess of what was expected he refused to believe this test. This is why he has largely abandoned his statistical approach in favour of games designers are right because they are in power.
No, I dismissed it because you chose an arbitrary metric. "Increase in win%" is not a metric by which the game is balanced, and you (or I) don't get to pick the metrics. You could "prove" anything is broken if you can pick your own metrics!


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 12:36 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Quote:
And this is where I say you are making a fallacious argument. Being in power does not make you right. You'd not accept that argument in any other circumstance.
I'd accept it in any circumstance where someone is creating something according to their own criteria, which is precisely what the game designers are doing. If I don't like what they've created then that's solely down to me.
Quote:
Back many pages ago I showed the teams that had a significant increase in win %age according to my testing. Dode just dismissed it, as even though he agreed that CDs had a win %age in excess of what was expected he refused to believe this test. This is why he has largely abandoned his statistical approach in favour of games designers are right because they are in power.
No, I dismissed it because you chose an arbitrary metric. "Increase in win%" is not a metric by which the game is balanced, and you (or I) don't get to pick the metrics. You could "prove" anything is broken if you can pick your own metrics!


Fair enough.

I don't have a dog in this fight - what would you consider fair metrics to determine whether something is unbalanced?

My suspicion is Dwarf players will hate it, Chaos players think it's fine and Halfling players love the idea that the opponents' toughest guy will be on the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 1:50 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
what would you consider fair metrics to determine whether something is unbalanced?
The metric chosen by the people who designed the game.

The "making a die" idea Wulfyn brought up earlier. When you are making a fair d6 you have several criteria:
1. It matches the basic design of a die - cubic, numbered sides 1 to 6
2. The distribution of each side when rolling the die is even.
3. Opposite sides add up to 7.
4. A suitable size to be rolled, described by a selection of the side length.

Those pretty much define what a fair d6 is. If it does those things then it is a d6. Two of those are not things which the creator of the die has any say over. If it doesn't match 1 or 2 then it's not a fair d6: it is either not rolling 1 to 6, or it is not rolling them evenly; the main difference between the two is that 1 is discernible immediately while 2 requires testing to ensure it is met. 3 is optional: it doesn't really matter but it is a convention we all know, sometimes to the extent that we don't want to use dice which are otherwise configured, even if it makes no difference to the ability to produce random numbers from 1 to 6 with an even distribution. The precise metrics used for 4 are also optional: you can make the die as large or as small as you physically can, but it's up to the creator to choose the actual dimensions he wants so long as the die is rollable then it will achieve the aim. There are other things like colour and material which the creator can choose as he wishes.

So Wulfyn makes his die. It meets criteria 1 and 2: it's a cube with numbers 1 to 6 on it, and the distribution after extensive testing is even. But the 3 is opposite the 6, the 1 opposite the 2 and the 4 is opposite the 5. It's also about the size of a coffee cup (his choice) and made of solid steel. It can be rolled, but it's quite heavy. Oh, and he's painted it a nasty shade of lime green. Is it a fair d6? I would say it is, but I would also say I don't like it. I prefer my dice to have opposite sides add to 7, I prefer them to be made of plastic, and I prefer them to be small enough that I can use a dice tower which won't double as a defensive fortification. It's not a broken d6 though. It's just one I don't like.

Taking that back to BB, we can say there are some criteria which are what make it recognisable as BB (e.g. a turn-based fantasy football game which involves coaches manipulating players on a board to put a ball into the endzone); that's a convention of what BB is. There are other criteria which are wholly down to preference of the game designer, such as the number, type and composition of races, the way certain mechanisms work, size of pitch, players per team etc etc. Those are all defined by the game designer and are easily met by simply writing the rules: a type 1 rule as per the d6 example above. The only type 2 criterion, the performance criterion, we have is "lifetime win percentage". The rules designers chose that as their metric for performance just as d6 performance is based on distribution. To that end if that criterion is met then it is not, by definition, broken. Had they chosen other criteria and they had not been met then the designers would have created a game which did not achieve their goals: it could reasonably be said to be broken, just as a d6 which rolls more 1s than other numbers can reasonably be said to be broken. Choosing other criteria is just like claiming Wulfyn's die is broken because you think it's too big: it's not broken, you just don't like it. Go get another die, or adjust the one you have until you do like it.


Last edited by dode74 on Thu May 26, 2016 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:28 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Scrappa wrote:
what would you consider fair metrics to determine whether something is unbalanced?
The metric chosen by the people who designed the game.


Okay. Which metric was that?


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 2:35 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
Okay. Which metric was that?
Lifetime win percentage within the bounds set by the tiers.

I edited above.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 3:21 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
Scrappa wrote:
Okay. Which metric was that?
Lifetime win percentage within the bounds set by the tiers.

I edited above.


Just read it! So this is an argument over semantics?

I assumed the OP meant, "This particular combination of skills renders a player far better than similar combinations of skills within the context of the game. It grants an unfair advantage to those teams which have access to it compared to those who don't. "

As for the "whatever the games designers did was right", I would say that's simply incorrect. Blood Bowl has had several editions of the game, each time altered by games designers who felt the rules needed changing. If the games designer created the perfect game, there would be no need for new editions.
Of course if this is simply an argument over whether broken can be used in this context and it has gone on for 18 pages, I would say that was a bit disingenuous and lacked magnanimity.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 3:23 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
Just read it! So this is an argument over semantics?

Some posters realise this, others do not.

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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 3:44 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
Just read it! So this is an argument over semantics?
It's an argument over whether the aforementioned combo is broken or not, and therefore what broken means. "Semantics" means "the meaning of words", so yes it is an argument over semantics. Many arguments are.
Quote:
I assumed the OP meant, "This particular combination of skills renders a player far better than similar combinations of skills within the context of the game. It grants an unfair advantage to those teams which have access to it compared to those who don't. "
You feel free to assume that. How are you defining "far better" and "unfair"? That's part of the semantics, of course, and part of the problem with the OP's "definition".
Quote:
As for the "whatever the games designers did was right", I would say that's simply incorrect. Blood Bowl has had several editions of the game, each time altered by games designers who felt the rules needed changing. If the games designer created the perfect game, there would be no need for new editions.
Nobody has said that "whatever the games designers did was right". That's Wulfyn's strawman. The designers choosing to make changes over various editions amounts to changing the colour, size or material of the die and nothing more: it's preference. Thing is, as the designers they have the ability - the authority - to act on that preference.
Quote:
Of course if this is simply an argument over whether broken can be used in this context and it has gone on for 18 pages, I would say that was a bit disingenuous and lacked magnanimity.
It's not disingenuous to say that Wulfyn's argument doesn't hold because his definitions are subjective and can be rejected. He's choosing his own metrics to come to his conclusions, which is entirely circular.
The whole thread started on the basis of a lack of magnanimity: Wulfyn was told that some people didn't think CPOMB was broken and he stated categorically (in another thread) that they were wrong, which is an objective statement. This thread was the offshoot of that discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:00 pm 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Scrappa wrote:
Just read it! So this is an argument over semantics?

Some posters realise this, others do not.


I thought it was an argument over whose definition of broken was more or less broken

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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:44 pm 
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dode74 wrote:
The whole thread started on the basis of a lack of magnanimity: Wulfyn was told that some people didn't think CPOMB was broken and he stated categorically (in another thread) that they were wrong, which is an objective statement. This thread was the offshoot of that discussion.


As one who is late to the party, my argument over whether or not it was broken would be: "In long leagues, beat-em-up teams tend to do better. Their players tend to survive to become tougher while those playmaking teams tend to have more deaths - Especially of the players good enough to be playmakers as they will be hunted down during the game by the beat-em-up teams. Tournaments with fresh teams, on the other hand, tend to favor the agility teams. In order to determine whether or not a particular combination is better, you'd have to not only look at win percentages by those with that ability, but pit it against other abilities that work together - Do wardancers win more games than this combination? Does Pass/Accurate/Safe Pass?"

There is no doubt in my mind that Claw/Piling On/Mighty Blow is the most devastating combination you can have against other beat-em-up teams, because they're not used to being beaten up. On the other hand, against a wardancer, i'd rather have Block/Tackle/Mighty Blow.

As a Goblin player, if someone had a 75+ SPP player they wanted to lay on the ground to take out one of my guys, I would be more than happy to hand him the dice.

I'm generally not bothered by how powerful certain combinations are when you get to that level.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:46 pm 
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Sandwich wrote:
lunchmoney wrote:
Scrappa wrote:
Just read it! So this is an argument over semantics?

Some posters realise this, others do not.


I thought it was an argument over whose definition of broken was more or less broken

You're broken


;)

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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:04 pm 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Some posters realise this, others do not.


I thought it was an argument over whose definition of broken was more or less broken[/quote]
You're broken


;)[/quote]

Some things you can't take back, Lunchmoney! :(


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:19 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
Some things you can't take back, Lunchmoney! :(

Why would I take it back? Sandwich is broken.
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:21 pm 
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Scrappa wrote:
In long leagues, beat-em-up teams tend to do better.
How are you defining "do better"? Because the data does not support the contention that bash teams win more matches. That's true in long leagues or in MM.
Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Claw/Piling On/Mighty Blow is the most devastating combination you can have against other beat-em-up teams, because they're not used to being beaten up. On the other hand, against a wardancer, i'd rather have Block/Tackle/Mighty Blow.
Yep. Working as intended.
Quote:
I'm generally not bothered by how powerful certain combinations are when you get to that level.
Neither am I. What matters is how well the race, as a whole, does.


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 Post subject: Re: Why ClawPOMB is broken
 Post Posted: Thu May 26, 2016 5:31 pm 
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lunchmoney wrote:
Scrappa wrote:
Some things you can't take back, Lunchmoney! :(

Why would I take it back? Sandwich is broken.
:lol:

Its true :cry: :lol:

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