Using skill after roll - PiOn, DTackle, PBlock

Don't understand a particular rule or just need to clarify something? This is the forum for you. With 2 of the BBRC members and the main LRB5/6 writer present at TFF, you're bound to get as good an answer as possible.

Moderator: TFF Mods

Post Reply
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Using skill after roll - PiOn, DTackle, PBlock

Post by plasmoid »

Hi all,
it has recently come to my attention that in 4.5th edition, you get to use "all" skills after seeing the die-roll.
Even Piling On, Diving Tackle and Pass Block.

This prompts 2 questions:
1. Piling On:
* Is it broken? This completely removes the risk that used to be involved - and the skill was allready very powerful.
I've posted 2 suggestions in the house rules forum.

2. Pass Block (the real question):
* Does that mean that it can be used after you've seen the roll to pass or catch, so that you can attempt the pass block if the roll is failed by "just 1" (or however many pass blockers you have"?

I'm assuming that if you want a shot at an interception then you have to make the move before the pass roll, since this is the proper time to make an intercept roll.

Reason: ''
sean newboy
Legend
Legend
Posts: 4805
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: West Palm Beach, florida
Contact:

Post by sean newboy »

1) Broken, i think not , however i think there will be alot of abuse and therefore alot of complaining about it. Im playing in a league that is still using the b4 roll and im still going to take it, prolly at the end of this current game :evil: .

2) I dont think its too bad for the interference idea, not many people ever take many pass blockers anyways. I totally agree to the intercepter needing to move b4 any rolls regardless.

Reason: ''
Hermit Monk of the RCN
Honourary Member of the NBA!
NAF Member #4329
Vault = putting in a 4 barrel Holley because the spark plugs need gapping.
User avatar
GalakStarscraper
Godfather of Blood Bowl
Posts: 15882
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:00 am
Location: Indiana, USA
Contact:

Post by GalakStarscraper »

Responses:

Diving Tackle: Skill so badly needed this upgrade to be useful ... I'm glad to see you didn't go after this one as after the dice roll is a slam dunk.

Piling On: You still go prone from using the skill so its not free. The skill was upgraded, but in no way shape or form do I think its too powerful in its upgraded form. Chet's crunched the numbers six ways to Tuesday and after some playtesting, I'm not seeing the problems with the upgraded skill.

Pass Block: It should be noted that I have yet to see a BBRC member actually say that this skill can be used after the dice rolls. .... I think by definition that this skill HAS to be used before the dice roll is made (PERIOD). If it means changing the skill wording to make it more clear fine. Since I haven't seen the BBRC say anything about PB after, as a commish its pretty easy to see the problems this would cause and say no it doesn't work that way. Defining Pass Block is already on my website with topics for the BBRC to address in October.

Galak

Reason: ''
Acerak
Rulz Guru
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Amherst, NY
Contact:

Post by Acerak »

Piling On still has a penalty involved. The only difference is that it's now a penalty for success (beat through AV) rather than a penalty for failure.

As for Pass Block, read your skill description. You have to declare it and use it once the pass is measured, but before any INT attempts.

Cheers!

-Chet

Reason: ''
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi all,
I'll go on complaining about Piling On elsewhere :)

As for Pass Block:
OK, I can accept the distinction put forth by Chet.
BUT, I must admit that I thought that the new "before or after" rule naturally superceded any mention of "before".

I.e. - I consider(ed) pass block and piling on to be the same thing: You used to do something in order to produced a specific effect. Now you can see whether you need said effect, before you do it.

But I digress.
Martin :)

Reason: ''
Acerak
Rulz Guru
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Amherst, NY
Contact:

Post by Acerak »

Martin,

Many supposed "rules problems" come down to simple coaching error. Not all of them do, mind you, but a great majority of us could stand to read the rulebook once or twice again!

Case in point: the new section on skill use says, "Unless stated otherwise in the skill's description you never have to use a skill just because the player's got it, and you can choose to use a skill that affects the dice roll after rolling the dice."

Note: "Unless stated otherwise in the skill's description." So you have to check the skill description first, in which case you'll find that you have to use Pass Block before the roll is made.

Cheers!

-Chet

Reason: ''
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Chet,
Okay - you got me on that one. :oops:
Let me rephrase.

You said:
>Case in point: the new section on skill use says, "Unless stated
>otherwise in the skill's description you never have to use a skill just
>because the player's got it, and you can choose to use a skill that affects
>the dice roll after rolling the dice."

>Note: "Unless stated otherwise in the skill's description." So you have to
>check the skill description first, in which case you'll find that you have to
>use Pass Block before the roll is made.

The way I see it, both Pass Block and Piling On modify a die roll.
Either way, I check the skill description.
Here I find that Piling On, just like Pass Block, holds a description as to when it is used, and so, this description should override the other rule.

Piling On states:
"The player may use this skill after making a block".
Thats at a specific point in time - just like Pass Block.
I understand this as "immediately" after the block, and indeed, thats how the passage has been interpreted up until now.

Unlike mighty blow, tackle and suchlike - skills where the timing issue was unclear/unimportant (and the new rule clearly applies) - the timing of Piling On is right there in the skill description.
IMO :)

Reason: ''
Acerak
Rulz Guru
Posts: 801
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Amherst, NY
Contact:

Post by Acerak »

Martin, I'm still not sure what you're getting at. Yes, Piling On mentions "after a block." That's to distinguish it from "after a foul," "after a player falls over," "at halftime," etc.

What does Piling On do? It directly modifies an AV roll. That's all it does. So unless stated otherwise, you can make that roll and then decide whether to use the skill.

Now let's look at Pass Block. First, the idea that Pass Block modifies a roll is erroneous. Pass Block simply allows you to move out of sequence in a certain situation. There's no guarantee your player will make it to his destination. Heck, there's no guarantee he'll have an effect on the die roll after he gets there, courtesy of Nerves of Steel! So the skill itself does not "affect the dice roll." Even if it did, the skill description spells out that you have to use it well before the die roll in question, so you clearly cannot wait until the die is rolled before using the skill! Any other reading is contrarian, plain and simple.

I hope this helps.

-Chet

Reason: ''
User avatar
SixFootDwarf
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2002 1:03 pm
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by SixFootDwarf »

For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with Ace. (Sorry Plas)

Moving to intercept is an action...you're not modifying his dice roll in any way. (Just trying to take away his NEXT dice roll. haha) Piling On, even though it IS a skill, is a modification to a roll.

Personally, I always thought you moved the Pass Blocker after the throw, but before the catch. If it's a fumble, what would a guy be trying to intercept?? haha See what I mean? Guess I was in error....again.

Reason: ''
Post Reply