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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:23 am 
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A couple more neat ideas for a better nerf of PO:

1) PO once per turn. It's a bit better than "PO only at POW" imo as the latter is much less reliable tool. One turn you can have 2+ opportunities to PO due to several POWs, the next one none. With "PO once per turn" you are sure you have one PO action at your disposal each turn, at least. The game hardly needs making more skills random.
2) Leave the default nerf (burns TRR) but make it couple with Pro as well. So the idea is you can either choose to use TRR and make a guaranteed PO action, or try to preserve TRR and decide to try your luck with Pro. If Pro fails then no PO for this player this turn (you still can reroll Pro with TRR if you really feel like it). It slightly un-nerfs it and makes taking the skill more viable, as you can now try to use it even earlier in half when you usually is too conservative about spending TRRs


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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:59 am 
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Quote:
It's a bit better than "PO only at POW" imo as the latter is much less reliable tool.
It's not intended to be reliable. It's intended to get more reliable the more ST advantage you have, and it does that.


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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Rambling opinions:

PO was not broken in CRP. It was just not fun. If it worked, the game was boring. If it didn't work, the game was boring. Very seldom did a game hit the middle sweet spot. If your definition of fun is how much you cripple the other team, grow up.

In BB2016, I accept the "removal" of the PO skill. The skill had two major effects in CRP, attrition and bash team success. I like redrafting. I do not see the need for PO to increase attrition anymore. I think directed MVP, no wizard, and change to petty cash rules boost bash team success. Is it the exact same balance, no. Do I think it is close enough to not need a house rule, yes. Am I happy that something I thought made the game more boring is gone, yes.

If someone wants to keep CRP and ignore BB2016, cool. I prefer to play the new version, but CRP worked quite well for a long time.

My default is to avoid house rules. I don't see that either version needs a house rule. Teams with access to PO in BB2016 don't need the buff of even a gimped PO. CRP didn't need PO nerfed as long as you played with mature people (maybe too big of a requirement).

If the wizard returns and/or the old petty cash rule comes back, I might change my opinion.

I do think some of the ideas proposed here are quite workable. I just don't think they add something needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:55 pm 
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You say the CRP PO lead to bash team success, yet the bash teams weren't the ones with the best win%, so explain why they need a nerf?

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:00 pm 
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Darkson wrote:
You say the CRP PO lead to bash team success, yet the bash teams weren't the ones with the best win%, so explain why they need a nerf?

I assume you were responding to, though your pronoun usage could be interpreted otherwise.
I listed three buffs bash teams received in BB2016. What else needs to be explained? I think those three buffs sufficiently justify a nerf. You are just as entitled as I am to have an opinion. My opinion just happens to not need a house rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:29 pm 
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I personally have been in the GW should have used the "POn can only be used if a POW (Defender Down) result is rolled"

I think that is the best solution and keep everything else with the CRP wording. In my opinion ... GW blew it as that suggestion was made to them while they were looking at changing POn and they decided instead to destroy the skill rather than make it a working version.

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:31 am 
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CyberedElf wrote:
Darkson wrote:
You say the CRP PO lead to bash team success, yet the bash teams weren't the ones with the best win%, so explain why they need a nerf?

I listed three buffs bash teams received in BB2016.

You did it in a bit cryptic manner, then. I've re-read your previous post, and couldn't see anything clearly defined as "buffs for bash teams in BB2016". I'll try to guess that removal of wizard is one of those 3, then it seems like you believe EM also buffs bash (here I would like some explanation why it's more beneficial to bash than to agi teams), and what would be the third one? You can't possibly believe Redrafting favors bash teams more? As it's quite the opposite.


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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:30 am 
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Mori-mori wrote:
You did it in a bit cryptic manner, then. I've re-read your previous post, and couldn't see anything clearly defined as "buffs for bash teams in BB2016". I'll try to guess that removal of wizard is one of those 3, then it seems like you believe EM also buffs bash (here I would like some explanation why it's more beneficial to bash than to agi teams), and what would be the third one? You can't possibly believe Redrafting favors bash teams more? As it's quite the opposite.

CyberedElf wrote:
I think directed MVP, no wizard, and change to petty cash rules boost bash team success.


Since, to you, my sentence was "cryptic," not "clearly defined as 'buffs,'" and suggests I "believe EM also buffs bash," I will give more details.

If you are reading this and did not find my first post confusing, please do not waste your time by reading the following detailed explanation.

I think "boost bash team success" is fairly clearly defined as "buffs for bash teams."

By "directed MVP," I was referring to MVP is now a D3 among selected instead of fully random. Skilling up key players on bashy teams was difficult because of how often they relied on SPP from casualties. Non-bashy teams can feed TDs to most players without too much difficulty. In the new rules it is easier to skill up lower agility players. I think this is a buff to bashy teams because they generally have more lower agility players.

By "no wizard," I was referring to the fact that the wizard from CRP has not been published in the new rules. That wizard was a major boost to high agility teams. On a 2+ roll the ball was usually on the ground. Removal of the wizard is a nerf to agility teams. This also swings the balance in favor of lower agility teams. And just to make sure that I am not being cryptic, I will add, lower agility teams are generally bashy teams.

By "change to petty cash rules," I was referring to the following rules:
CRP p. 28 wrote:
Both teams at this point may transfer gold pieces from their team treasury into petty cash. Petty cash may be used during the current match to purchase inducements and adds directly to the team value of the team for this match.

In BB2016 treasury can be used to influence the game without affecting the TV. Typically bashy teams acquired a larger treasury under CRP than non-bashy. Non-bashy teams generally had to replace more players and had a lower treasury. Teams that don't need to save money to replace players can use that money to buy inducements.

I hope you can now see that I listed three things that, in my opinion, buff bash teams. Combined with the PO change, some of the changes I like and some I don't, but I find that they seem to all work together as a whole.

I think CRP worked well and I think BB2016 works well (with card variant rules). I do not think PO needed to be nerfed in CRP or used in BB2016 without other changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:00 am 
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Ok, I somehow managed to overlook this line, my bad.

But here is a problem: Redrafting additionally nerfes bash teams, as it force them to suffer additional attrition they didn't suffer before, while at the same time it doesn't affect squishy teams that much because they rarely were able to keep their stars alive for several seasons anyway. In addition, removal of PO reduces long-term attrition for elves and rats due to less CAS during match (up until the Redrafting will get to them, but this will happen only after 3-4 seasons, on average). It also makes bash teams' life harder as removing players is their main counter-measure against agile teams. I very much doubt that the latter can be really balanced with removal of wizard (which is not removed completely btw, as Horatzio is here, and it's cheaper, and you now have 2 shots of it per match what compensates well enough drop in usual accuracy) and new cash rules (and upper limits enforced by EM is strict enough to allow bash team to accumulate enough money to make it really matter with inducements). It doesn't look to me that this all may preserve former balance, more like odds are shifted even more in favor of squishy teams.


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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:20 am 
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Actually, I don`t think redraft nerfs the bash teams. Sure, some of the players that would not die, will now not be kept (and "die") between seasons. Min-maxing, hower, is a lot easier and more effective than earlier.

Example: If an Orc team gets to keep his Ag4 Blodgehands blitzer, and two MB, Tackle blitzers then the rest isn`t really that important. You could lose some guard, and some Block-BOBs. You could even ditch the troll. Your elf opponent next season is not likely to field a deep bench. You have your ball handler and your killers, and you are in excellent shape. Also the targeted MVPs will make sure you can skill up those other positionals rather early in the new season.


Last edited by straume on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Piling On 2016 un-nerf
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:41 am 
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Unfortunately it's all theory crafting, up until one (or more) of the online places starts churning out figures, and with with Cyanide saying they're sticking with their (houseruled) CRP it's up to Fumbbl (and I have no idea what they're doing).

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