Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[Daht]

Piling on change is solid. Still stacks pretty nasty with claw/mb.

Fouling change big yes from me.

Sneaky Git change big ups from me.

Right Stuff is pretty major, but I don't think it would break any stunty teams balance. Counter skills make for fun matchups.

Bank rules are solid.

6 and 7 are ok, balance for those matter a lot in how often they are used/how often coaches play, and fixed vs open scheduling.

Wizards should keep LB, it's a pretty major change to remove it, poss make a FB only wizard 150, a fb/lb wizard 200..

Team Changes:

Goblins: unsure.. the RS boost is significant, a 3rd troll is pretty huge. A local coach suggested bankable bribes (can add up to 3 bribes permanent on the team at 100k each, and remove the cost-advantage on inducement bribes).

Halflings: interesting.. like them.

Orc: I see where you are going, but the team becomes weak chaos.. the throwers gave them most of their identity. I think lowering gobbos to 0-2 is fine, and I'd look at nerfing the thrower (remove sure hands or pass from starting skills)

Humans: like very much

Dwarves: nice minor change.. I might also bump rerolls to 60k.. dwarves are tough to nerf without over-nerfing

Welves: ok change..

Undead: HUGE power boost, kind of the exact opposite of what you are going for. no general access is the biggest nega trait of all for the 5 str crowd.

Khemri: I like those.

Vamp: solid

Ogre: good

[dode74]

The Bank rule will totally mess up the 600k Halfling starting build.

Why? Their effective TV will be 900 (100 in the bank), and they'll need to spend 300 in cash+100 in inducements vs a TV1000 team instead of 400 in inducements on the first game only. I can't see it making a jot of difference, tbh.

[Thadrin]

I'm fine with the yellow and Green stuff. Agree with Ian and Galak on Piling On.
Third troll for the Goblins? No. Dryads on Halflings? no. 10k discount on Ogres? fine with that, but only to keep them in line with the Humans, where I do think the change is warranted.
I see no reason to change the Orc team, apart from maybe just completely removing Goblins, and imho the change to Mummies is utterly ridiculous.

[Lunchab1es]

4. i don't like it. i see new mutant gutter runners class, inmortal goblin xD

Gutter runner don't have Right Stuff (and it's no longer a mutation option), so they would be unaffected by this change.

Will the nerf to piling on plus the fouling boosts diminish the usefulness of piling on too much? Or will it reduce it to a more strategic usage? Hard to tell...

[plasmoid]

I think there'll still be plenty of PiOn.
It's lower reward, but also lower risk.
And you'll still want to maximize damage potential, even if max has been lowered.

[uuni]

Hi plasmoid!

The proposed rules look nice, and I am looking forward to playtesting them with my friends in my local league. Lets see how they roll out.

In your page you mention the handicap methods available for experienced coaches and discuss the subject further. I would like to bring to your attention the Fan Factor price adjustment as an optional rule for increasing the handicaps per the track record of the teams. It has been discussed in here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=32463.

In current rules, the price of FF can be 10k or 0k (Optional rule: Free Fan Factor). The proposed rule would make the price of FF to be decided by the league commish, quite similar to the rules regarding the Spiralling Expenses.

Thank you for your effort on the subject. I have a feeling that this method of making house rules could be the correct way forward in the current IP climate. Cheers for the refugee government of BBRC also!

[Digger Goreman]

For those who think a third Troll would be too much for Gobbos: We tested a four Troll team and it failed miserably against all first tier teams... and this with a 25 year, masterful goblin coach....

Purely anecdotal... but that's the way it went....

[uuni]

Plasmoid, is this correct place to ask for clarifications on your rules?

My friends in my league were uncertain if Piling On and Mighty Blow could stack in the same armor or injury roll with the +1 change. We think they stack, but are not certain. Do they stack?

Also, I tried to compare you MB+PO comparison table numbers to http://slobb.doubleskulls.net/injury.php but were confused. Which numbers compare to which, as I don't get them to match each other?

Thank you!

[plasmoid]

Hi Uuni,
yes, they stack. Otherwize PiOn would never get taken, as it is 100% inferior to normal Mighty Blow.

The numbers are 'chance to get a KO+ - including a 2 dice block without block (or dodge)'.
Thus I've factored in a knockdown chance of 20/36.
If you want to get the straight Armor Roll => Injury Roll => KO+, then you should multiply my numbers by 36/20 (= 1.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
4 things seem to be the most controversial/unpopular, so I'd like to explain my reasons for them. Alternative suggestions are welcome, but nothing will change until the playtest tournament has run it's course a year from now. Still, nice to be prepared and informed

1) No Lightning Bolt
I agree that the change is not needed under the current rules.
This is me thinking ahead!
If bash goes down significantly, which I think it will with the nerf to PiOn, then the balance will swing back towards finesse teams. Suddenly the elves won't be down to 7 players in a jiffy. And in this new environment I belive the Lightning Bolt is too good. Against a full elven team, it is very often a gift touchdown for just 15(0) points of inducements. I think this will be too good for the elves (and Skaven).

2) 3rd Troll for Goblins
Some have argued that this will be too good. Others have chimed in to say it won't. Preliminary testing has been gobbo losses... 3 Really Stupid players can quickly turn into trouble. But I have my eye on this one.

If this makes the gobbos too good (i.e. move them to the top of tier 1, or above) then my alternative fix will be upping the number of pogos to 0-2. They're not secret weapons anymore, so it's kind of weird that they're 0-1 anyway. That should provide a substantially smaller buff for the gobbos.

3) The Undead
This is me listening to the undead coaches. Originally I just wanted the nerf, but quite a few undead coaches have informed me that undead performance drops off rather sharply somewhere around 170+. So a nerf intended for the short term might be really bad long term.

So I've given G-access back. So far I've had strong reactions both ways, with the most spectacular one being that it was downright ridiculous.

Now, unsurprisingly, I don't think that it is.
I think it takes the mummies quite a few skill rolls before they catch up to the loss of mighty blow. Not to mention the fact that starting without mighty blow makes skill progress a lot slower.

Consider: Grab or Mighty Blow? IMO MB is way better.
Grab Block or Mighty Blow Guard. I think Mighty Blow Guard is better, not to mention a tournament staple. Grab, Block, Mighty Blow or Mighty Blow Guard Stand Firm. I think this just about evens out, but I'd personally rather have the guard one.
After Block G-access isn't all that, because there are so many good S-skills - and Grab prevents you from taking the one you want (Frenzy).

4) Halflings:
OK, not many people like the Dryads. I'd be happy to call them saplings or something similar, if that better reflects that they're smaller treeman types - perhaps rather than the nimble Dryads of the warhammer world. That being said, the team does have access to a Dryad star...

Either way, what to do for halflings.
I've considered more coaching staff (a rostered Master Chef), but I really think that the team already has enough outside help. It gets a bit much, IMO.

Another suggestion is some halfling positionals.
I like that, but I wonder if they'll add enough, since any halfling statline will have the player rather vulnerable.
2 suggestions from the past that I like is:
0-4? Fatfellows 5337 Dodge, Stunty, Thick Skull (GA)
or
0-2? Sous Chefs 6237 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Stab (A)
I quite like both of those

I went with Dryads, because they add something that set halflings apart from the other stunty teams (stunty and bash). The Dryads add G-skills, which is quite a big deal. They also add some toughness for the LOS, if you want to use them for that.
And they add a modest passing game - which I think is really interesting and appealing for a stunty side.
That's why I went with those.

Now, personally, I'd have preferred a Human Thrower, because of the connection between Halflings and the Empire, but some purists have blasted me in the past for not loving the Tolkien angle that BB has on halflings.

Commenst of these 4 are very welcome.
Cheers
Martin

PS - oh, the teams I've chosen to nerf and buff were based largely on the stats I collected for LRB6 play. That's why Slann haven't been touched. Amazon too.
Honestly, I think if Amazon were to change, they need a major overhaul, not just a tweak. I know what I'd do personally, but it would probably be such a controversial subject, that it would turn (even) more people against these house rules.

[spubbbba]

1) I’m not sure if the removal of the lightning bolt is such a hardship for elves. Elves don’t need to cage as they can just leave the ball carrier deep vs bashy teams and do the old move > pass > move > hand off > move > score. The bolt makes that a lot more risky as you have a reliable way to hit the carrier and he can’t be left on his own in case his armour is broken.

My other objection is that it’s just dull having only a fireball, so I think if you are set on removing it then you should replace it with something. I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d like to see Zaap! Back.

2) I don’t think the 3rd troll is a massive improvement, it certainly wont’ make them top of tier 1, that’s just a complete joke. The change is probably just enough, 2 pogos won’t make much difference but might be fun.

3) The Undead change I really like as they are a tough team to balance since they are one of the strongest rookie teams but tail off really quickly as they can’t elfball well enough or bash enough at this range. This isn’t just limited to them, other hybrid teams such as humans and necromantic have the same issues, as do Khemri but they suck as low TV too, just even more so at higher TV.

The loss of MB is a huge nerf at low TV since they will take a long time to skill up as the odds of getting a cas are pretty slim with a blockless 2D so you are relying on them and MVP’s. You have basically a regen +ST but –MA and AG Black Orc with a marginally useful skill.

4) As I stated on FUMBBL, I hate the fling change. Not because of balance reasons, (this would make them a lot more competitive) but because it fundamentally changes the dynamic of the team. Stunty teams should be little and big guys with nothing in between aside from stars. It would be like giving Khemri a gutter runner to buff them, effective but ruins the team’s theme.

I do like the idea of halfing positionals better, a stab guy or some sort of blocker/runner could make them more fun. But fat fellows with ST3, AV7, G access, stunty and dodge seem a bit extreme. Either stick to G access or ST3 not both.

p.s. I think some coaches have been really out of order over on FUMBBL in the related thread. You’ve made it perfectly clear these are suggested house rules to try and balance things out, something the BBRC deliberately avoided with sub tier 1 teams as they are supposed to be worse. Is kind of depressing to see us conform to the internet jerk stereotype.

[legowarrior]

For Halflings, I think the only way to go is to give Treemen Loner again, but then change it so that you have access to FOUR (4!) Treemen.

With 4 treemen, well, that would be fun, but they would still have loner.
Since in most games the goal is to induce Deeproot anyway, why not just drop the need for the star player by giving everyone access to a third and a fourth treemen of their own?



Another idea for the Halflings might be to help the cement their place as the best thrown team around.

0-2 Halfling Crazies - 5/2/3/7 - Stunty, Dodge, Right Stuff, Thick Skull, Jump Up - AS/GP - 60K

[Kinks]

p.s. I think some coaches have been really out of order over on FUMBBL in the related thread. You’ve made it perfectly clear these are suggested house rules to try and balance things out, something the BBRC deliberately avoided with sub tier 1 teams as they are supposed to be worse. Is kind of depressing to see us conform to the internet jerk stereotype.

+1, I can see why FUMBBL didn't get involved with LRB 6 now.

Thought I would repost my thoughts on here where people seem to have taken the time to read the suggestions and give thoughtful responses.

1. Piling on. I prefer Galak and Ians version. They have the majority so I feel that suggestion should be trailed first. I prefer it as your version means piling on would have a 100% success rate when used - people would only PO if it was going to work. This would make it more of a no brainer skill than a tactical calculated risk, which I prefer. Although your stats show your version making the skill less effective they assume PO is always used and do not take into account how often PO wouldn't be used for fear of failure with Galaks & Ians version.

The fact it helps high AV / counters Claw I don't think is such a bad thing, I feel it will make Orc/dorf/lizzies vs claw teams more competitive.

2. Fouling. Couldn't agree more.

3. Sneaky git. I'm not opposed to this, although I think I agree with Ian. I presume sneaky git is suppose to primarily boost stunties and agile teams? Why would they want to stand in TZ's? My suggestions:

a) SG players only get sent of on double 1, 2 or 3.
b) SG players can RR an AV or inj roll if they roll a double (everyone seems to like AV and inj RR's with PO......)
c) When KO rolls are made 1 SG player on each team with that is banned can return to the reserves box on a 4+ (Also works for secret weapons!?)

4. Right stuff. Mostly agree - will be interesting to see how it pans out Smile

5. Bank. I Agree.

6. Spiralling expenses. Not something I have any direct experience of. Although, I'm not keen on SE as a game mechanic at all. Amongst other reasons, the removal of ageing has caused issues in the box for me. Perhaps SE could directly relate to the number of stars & legends in a team, rather than the TV?

7. Concessions. Seems unnecessary to me combined with inducements and the proposed bank rules. It may make league start ups fairer though.

8. Wizards. If I'm honest I've not used, had one used against me or even witnessed one used Smile. It does seem powerful, but then 150 TV is a large advantage. I'll sit on the fence with this one.

Roster changes:
(I'll just comment where I disagree / have a suggestion and not comment on those I have no opinion or agree with)

Humans - I think will need the cheaper blitzers too (in line with orcs).

Woodies - Pushing SB down the skill choices concerns me, it becomes more useless at higher TV as most teams have SH on there ball carrier. I like SB, it is a key part in game play, less SB would be bad for BB IMO.

Slann - Need some love IMO. Cheaper blitzers seems the obvious one. I find there team roster most comparable to humans and skaven, the main difference being slann are more expensive. The greatest downfall being they lose players fast, aren't agile enough to cope with a small team and are to expensive to have a large bench. Perhaps a skill that allows them a soft landing on failed leaps (and maybe dodges and GFI's), maybe -1 to the AV roll?

Zons - Need some hate. I hate them, I think that sums that one up nicely Smile

Flings - Doesn't look like there is much support for Dryads. An on field master chef sounds fun. A third tree could be the way. I like the idea of extra flings sneaking on the pitch, maybe being able to set up 10+1D3 players - although this may be OP with the proposed Right Stuff buff.

Ogres - Same price but allow 0-8. [edit: I'm not opposed to the suggestion for MA 5 AV 6 snots as suggested in this thread, if flings are AV7]

Hope they are of use.

[tchatter]

Interesting. First off, let me say that I have very few issues with the rules as they stand now and would much rather just leave them be. However, I agree with a few of the issues, but some of them just seem to be change for the sake of change. Most are easily house ruled, after all when will LRB7 be issued, so is this really just an exercise in futility? Won't it take us back to the days of no "official" ruleset and leagues with a bunch of different houserules?

1. Piling On: I don't like the change to be exactly like Mighty Blow, I also don't like that Accurate is the same as Strong Arm. Each skill should be unique. I have no issue with how PO is now. You want to put your player on the ground, go for it, I'll be coming at you with the changes in #2 and #3 and giving you the boot.

2. Fouling: If you make this change, does #1 even need to happen?

3. Sneaky Git: I like this change, it does need a buff of some sort and with the #2 change and this change, is the #1 change still needed?

4. Right Stuff: This one I could go along with. It really sucks for Gobbos and Halfings when they meet up with dwarves only to have their skills pretty much wiped from them, this would help them.

5. Bank: Should have been in CRP, but we won't go there...

6. Spiralling expenses: I agree with this, but again, its in the rules that it can be set to whatever the commissioner wants. I also realize that SE probably wasn't "fully" tested and now with years worth of data, the 180 with steps of 10 probably makes more sense.

7. Concessions: I can see this. Or at least cut it in half.

8. Wizards: Don't agree. I would rather go the other way, there should be WAY more than just Fireball and Lightning Bolt, BRING BACK ZAP!!!!

ROSTERS:

Humans: Ogre... what about the Chaos Ogre? (weird that Ogres are at two different costs) Catcher change makes sense. I like the 80k blitzers as well, after all look at the Orc roster. Would all 3 of these go too far the other way?

Khemri: I agree with Thick Skull. Decay I am on the fence with, I agree that it sucks on them, but I like the fluff of Decay on them. I'd rather see Decay changed.

Ogres: Agree, if you change an Ogre, you change it across the board. I don't like MA6 Snots.


Looking at the other teams, I don't agree with the changes to Tier 0 with the exception of the Dodge on Wood Elves. Vampire rerolls I could go along with, I like the Thralls as a clean slate. I don't like the extra Troll on Goblin, if you want to buff Goblins change the Secret Weapon rule to allow them to set up less than 11 players, in order to eliminate being forced to "use" you secret weapon player for turn 8 of the first half and then watch him go bye-bye, NOT COOL. Don't like the Dryads, doesn't fit.

Just my opinions.

[Afroman]

Another idea for the Halflings might be to help the cement their place as the best thrown team around.

0-2 Halfling Crazies - 5/2/3/7 - Stunty, Dodge, Right Stuff, Thick Skull, Jump Up - AS/GP - 60K

I like the idea of a new positional for the flings(the dryads are a little out of fluff for me), but JU seems completely wrong due to their low AV. I rather see a skill that rerolls landing or as proposed in another thread, change Sure feet to give +1 one on landing.