Alternative Humans

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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Rhyoth
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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Rhyoth »

mattgslater wrote: Blocker v2
6/3/2/9 Block GS 70k
There is nothing wrong with that guy, apart from one thing : flavour
That's why i prefer this profile :
5 3 2 9 Block, Tackle GS 70 k

With this design, he would have his own flavour, and would not be just a "less agile, more armored" blitzer.

Sure, Block + Tackle is a dreadful combo, but with only 2 of those guys, which are only MA 5 and AG2, so they can be avoided quite easily. Also remember i'm talking about those guys replacing Blitzers, not Catchers, so they' d better bring something to the team.
(i don't think those guys should replace 2 Catchers : it would break the team's finesse/bash balance, and Human don't deserve to have 6 guys starting with block : they are no Norse...)
Patchwork wrote:
Rhyoth wrote: 1) Catchers need to be fixed, so they could stand the comparison with Runners, especially with AV 8 runners
(possible fixes : still torn between Sure Feet for free, or price reduced to 60 k)
While the Runners could be built into catchers, they are more likely to be turned into wrestle blitzers, espically with blitzers droping to 0-2 and if you drop the Blockers ag to 2. That would be replacing one of the most popular ways of developing Catchers but has the potential to free the Catchers up for out and out scoring or as a mobile dirty player or being completely ignored. Being a 0-2 positional might make them a little less disliked too, no more questioning what you'd do with 4 of them and less of a fragile link in the team with the blockers helping to make the team tougher.
Right now, despite they suffer a lot of critics, you still see a lot of Human teams with 2 or even 3 Catchers since :
_ they are the fastest players of the team
_ they start with Dodge (and Catch)
_ they're the only players of the team with access to Agility skills

Now, if you introduce Runners, you will strip Catchers of 2 of their main assets : their only remaining quality will be their MA 8 : i'm not sure it will be enough to make coachs forget about all their drawbacks...

So, yeah, even if we do boost them, i'm afraid there won't be any spare room for them in human backfield anymore (with 2 Blockers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 1 Ogre and 1 Kicker, all the spots are taken...)

Note : i think such a change should be done anyway, even if you don't introduce Blockers/Runners

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:So, yeah, even if we do boost them, i'm afraid there won't be any spare room for them in human backfield anymore (with 2 Blockers, 2 Blitzers, 2 Runners, 1 Ogre and 1 Kicker, all the spots are taken...)
Most of the time the Blockers wouldn't be in the backfield and the same with the ogre. I could also see the catchers being potentialy usefull, they're still faster then the other agility piece and with the runners likely taking the wrestle ball winner/safety blitzer place on the team, the catchers would be free to go for skills like diving catch, sprint or sure feet, all of which help make the catcher be more of an out and out scorer or one could go dirty player, to be a dodging mobile fouler that you can get to just where you need them and also wouldn't upset you if they did get sent off. I do admit though that I don't think they'd be key positionals and I'd probably only use one on offence and defence.

Also bare in mind I like and use the catchers in the current human roster :P

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:
mattgslater wrote: Blocker v2
6/3/2/9 Block GS 70k
There is nothing wrong with that guy, apart from one thing : flavour
That's why i prefer this profile :
5 3 2 9 Block, Tackle GS 70 k

With this design, he would have his own flavour, and would not be just a "less agile, more armored" blitzer.
I get what you're trying to do with a second skill to make the blocker have more flavour and to make the 5 3 2 9 stat line work but Tackle just doesn't seem right to me for that. I'd prefer something like Stand Firm.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Rhyoth »

Patchwork wrote: I get what you're trying to do with a second skill to make the blocker have more flavour and to make the 5 3 2 9 stat line work but Tackle just doesn't seem right to me for that. I'd prefer something like Stand Firm.
It's an option i have already considered, but rejected, since there is a lot of resaons to prefer Tackle over Stand Firm, as :

1) A matter of game balance :
Stand Firm is too powerful

2) A matter of global coherence :
Humans should incarnate some sort of "standard", so their skills should be "standard".
Now, take a close look at the different rosters, and it will appear pretty clearly that Stand Firm (as a starting skill) is not a standard skill, while Tackle is, since it's given to a common and emblematic player : the Dwarf Blocker

3) A matter of design :
Human Blockers are not meant to (fully) replace linemen ! (even if they do perform better than those guys on the LoS)
With that in mind giving them Tackle is very interresting, since it will motivate coaches not putting them automatically on the D-line, or more generally, not automatically commit them in what could be the "wrong" fight.

note : it's the same principle that leads me thinking they should be Ag 2 (and Ma5), and it's also why i don't think you should have more than 4 Blockers+Blitzers (+any other kind of player with acces to S skills) in a human team.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by mattgslater »

Tackle on Dwarfs is in my mind a function of physiology. Also, I don't want to load the team up too much on skills. Each player should feel like he's just enough of a tweak on the Human template to be good at what he's supposed to be doing. They can take SF or Tackle.

I was trying to keep them to 70k in order to get them onto the LOS. My idea is that in the optimal backfield, the Runners and Blitzers would man the strong positions, the Throwers, Linemen and Catchers would take the flanks (probably behind SS/Blodge Wingers after several matches) and safety spots.

Note, though, that if all the positionals are on the pitch, there are no linemen. Since 4x Catcher is relatively rare, this doesn't come up much, but with this roster you'd have the Orc philosophy, where Linemen are actually few and far between, and really just function as an excuse to start an extra TRR and then a penalty for JMs/reserves.

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:1) A matter of game balance :
Stand Firm is too powerful
Could be. I'm not the best judge of roster balance.


Rhyoth wrote:2) A matter of global coherence :
Humans should incarnate some sort of "standard", so their skills should be "standard".
Now, take a close look at the different rosters, and it will appear pretty clearly that Stand Firm (as a starting skill) is not a standard skill, while Tackle is, since it's given to a common and emblematic player : the Dwarf Blocker
Tackle is a starting skill on two players, dwarf blockers on the chaos dwarf and dwarf teams. Two cases doesn't make much of a standard... except for dwarves :wink:

Stand Firm is also a starting skill on Necros (I'm not going to count any big guys with it). Which isn't a huge amount less teams then tackle is a starting skill on.


Rhyoth wrote:3) A matter of design :
Human Blockers are not meant to (fully) replace linemen ! (even if they do perform better than those guys on the LoS)
With that in mind giving them Tackle is very interresting, since it will motivate coaches not putting them automatically on the D-line, or more generally, not automatically commit them in what could be the "wrong" fight.
Stand Firm also encourages you to use a player out on the flanks and not on the LOS.


Rhyoth wrote:note : it's the same principle that leads me thinking they should be Ag 2 (and Ma5), and it's also why i don't think you should have more than 4 Blockers+Blitzers (+any other kind of player with acces to S skills) in a human team.
Well when I'm talking about them, I mean on the roster Matt posted with only 0-2 blitzers, 0-2 runners and 0-2 catchers. Why I don't like tackle for the Blockers really is I see it as a skill that's more useful for deep lying players and for hitting players, which makes them seem more like a Blitzer then a Blocker to me.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by juck101 »

Yeah the more I think about it the more I think humans need more strength skills to bash.

A less radical change of the teams layout and the positionals on the pitch might be achieved by adding the strength skills for lineman to pick.

Lineman 6 3 3 8 - G/S 50k

If human lineman could skill up with G/S skills then that would add muscle to them over time, and make catchers a viable alternative on defense. This I would assume without playtesting would give massive options to the side after a few games. 2 or 3 block lineman would be partnered with 2 or 3 guard (blockless) lineman and that would be enough for me to put the catchers away on offense.

Personally that feels very fitting as the blitzers would still be the stars of the team with ma+1 and starting with block. I would build 2 scrimage cannon fodder linemen and the rest would be guard block powerhouses. That might knock on and result in me going guard,stand firm on the blitzers and finally that would be a very strong bash side over time.

Crucially for me that might convince me that long term the humans could be bashier than norse and amazon. This is the crux that human cant compete at higher levels.

-----------
If this idea sounds broken then give the men 4 blockers that are 50k with G/S access and lineman stats. To be honest 4 blockers and a few lineman would be the same line up as the above option, just with a future cap to keep them from overdeveloping.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by plasmoid »

Whatever you do, please keep it simple.

I prefer: AV+ on catchers (80K).
10K price drop on ogre and rerolls to compensate.

Cheers
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(Though admittedly, starting the catchers with diving catch for free is also quite appealing)

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by juck101 »

"Lineman 6 3 3 8 - G/S 50k"

Its is the ultimate in simple. I wont accept any criticism that there are no figures because the don't matter snow trolls or bull centaurs, or darky runners :)

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by mattgslater »

That fits my concept of the "lineman" better. This would mean some Human teams may not max out on Throwers....

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What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by EastCoast »

Hi Guys, I was wondering how the DSA human roster was performing?

Better, worse, dunno nobody plays them, etc.?

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Grumbledook »

not aware of anyone who has played them at high TV levels which is where people say humans suffer the most

in short term leagues the standard human roster performs fine

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by EastCoast »

Yeah, I get that the regular roster is fine at low levels. I was under the impression that SLOBB would be using the DSA particular roster with the 7337 catchers, I was just wondering how they did and whether or not coaches liked them better or not. In theory it sounds like a fun variation, just wondering how it performed on the actual pitch.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by Kort »

plasmoid wrote:Whatever you do, please keep it simple.
I prefer: AV+ on catchers (80K).
10K price drop on ogre and rerolls to compensate.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with this proposition. One can argue that Catchers are supposed to be lightly armored, but Humans are also to be one of the best teams according to the fluff. ST2 is already vulnerable enough and prevents the Catchers from becoming junior Blitzers. AV8 would increase skill retention, so that having many Catchers and skilling-up them up would be a better strategy, whereas Human teams with 3 Catchers or more are currently a rarity.

On the long run, the 10k cost increase of the Catchers should not matter since they will not have to be replaced so often. However, it would also impact the initial roster composition and I agree with plasmoid that some price breaks could be necessary here.

Decreasing the cost of the Ogre should not be an issue (The Ogre team would become a bit better as well). Decreasing the cost of the Human rerolls to 40k will probably be met by a staunch opposition, but I think it would give the roster a great and original flavor without unbalancing it too much, since it already starts with many reroll-granting skills. A plausible alternative is to lower the cost of the Blitzers, but that would perhaps be a bit too much.

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Re: Alternative Humans

Post by OrcishBard »

My pick for a Human Blocker would be 70k for 4 3 2 9 Mighty Blow GS


Fits the Mighty Zug stats

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