Werewolf roster

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:Also, one of my coach is trying to include some true Wolf in the roster, but we still have some problem to design it :
Basic Profile : 6 3 3 7 (but we may increase MV/AG/AV)
Skills : Sure Feet (four legged player)+ No Hand (+ optionnal Frenzy)

At first, it was supposed to be a positionnal, but i'm wondering if we can make it a "linewolf" instead...
WDYT ?
You'd have to give them all wild animal :wink:

But I don't like it, I'm not a fan of actual wild animals on Blood Bowl teams and while I can imagin a werewolf taking over a pack of wolves, I don't thing the werewolf would ever be able to explain the game to the wolves well enough for them to be on a 'professional' team.

I also quiet like the idea of half bloods as the linemen, I kinda like the 6 3 3 7 statline with frenzy, seems nice and fluffy for them. I'm not sure how well that much frenzy would work. The Savage Orc team in the MBBL2 might give some idea of how good that much frenzy is.

0-16: Half Bloods 6 3 3 7 G ASP Frenzy 50k
0-4: Ulfwerenerer 6 4 2 8 GS AP Fenzy 110k
0-2: Werewolf 8 3 3 8 Claw, Frenzy, Regeneration GA SP 120.000 GP

Looks interesting to me and with the Werewolves and Ulfs added up to 0-6, seems like a nice flip of the Vampires roster... I might be the only one that wants to make them that similier to the Vampires though :P

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by voyagers_uk »

you get my vote actually Patch :D

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by mattgslater »

Looks unplayable, if you ask me. All AV7/Frenzy with very limited access to S skills? Eek. What about including a position that doesn't have Frenzy? You know, some kind of "minder" type with skills to go up against Ulfs and Weres when necessary.

0-2 Kinfolk 6/3/3/8 Dauntless, Tackle GS 80k

Or take Frenzy off of Half-Bloods and give them something else to compensate that fits the fluff but doesn't jive with the positionals. Or just make them 40k, like anti-Thralls. Or at a minimum, give your 50k Frenzy Hobgoblins access to S skills, so they can get Guard on whatever guys are so fortunate as to hit 16 SPP (gotta get Block or Wrestle first; after all, they have Frenzy).

Oh, and I don't think a non-Loner WA position is a big problem, especially if you don't mind looking at new skills. How about a player with a skill he can use at the end of a Move action to negate all Frenzy and Wild Animal skills on all players who begin their action in his TZ until his next action?

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Rhyoth »

Yeah, an all-out Frenzy is probably too much...

Currently, we're still following the "True Wolf" idea, so his current profile is now :

7 3 3 7 - G,A : Diving Tackle*, No Hand, Sure Feet, Wrestle : 80.000 GP
*possibly replaced by Shadowing

We dropped Frenzy, considering that, under this form, the wolf is a lot less "irritable", and has a lot more control compared to a Werewolf under his "hybrid" form.

Regarding WA, we dropped it because we considered :
_ Werewolves have some kind of telepathic link with them (the "Pack's Spirit")
_ they are some kind of former Werewolf, and "trapped" in their Wolf state, so they're still a lot smarter than a mere wolf


Of course, if we do add Wild Animal to the mix, we could lower the price to, say, around 50-60 k...

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Patchwork »

mattgslater wrote:Looks unplayable, if you ask me. All AV7/Frenzy with very limited access to S skills? Eek. What about including a position that doesn't have Frenzy? You know, some kind of "minder" type with skills to go up against Ulfs and Weres when necessary.

Or take Frenzy off of Half-Bloods and give them something else to compensate that fits the fluff but doesn't jive with the positionals. Or just make them 40k, like anti-Thralls.
I don't know, none of the other positionals suggested really seem to suit werewolves for me. Changing the Half Bloods to be 6 3 3 7 Thick Skull G ASP 40k would still be nice and fluffy, being part werewolf making them harder to injure then a normal lightly armored human.


mattgslater wrote:Oh, and I don't think a non-Loner WA position is a big problem, especially if you don't mind looking at new skills. How about a player with a skill he can use at the end of a Move action to negate all Frenzy and Wild Animal skills on all players who begin their action in his TZ until his next action?
I kinda like the idea but on all players? Including opponents with frenzy and wild animal?


Rhyoth wrote:Currently, we're still following the "True Wolf" idea, so his current profile is now :

7 3 3 7 - G,A : Diving Tackle*, No Hand, Sure Feet, Wrestle : 80.000 GP
*possibly replaced by Shadowing

We dropped Frenzy, considering that, under this form, the wolf is a lot less "irritable", and has a lot more control compared to a Werewolf under his "hybrid" form.

Regarding WA, we dropped it because we considered :
_ Werewolves have some kind of telepathic link with them (the "Pack's Spirit")
_ they are some kind of former Werewolf, and "trapped" in their Wolf state, so they're still a lot smarter than a mere wolf


Of course, if we do add Wild Animal to the mix, we could lower the price to, say, around 50-60 k...
I still don't like the idea of wolves on the roster... and making them really be werewolves stuck in that form doesn't make it much better but I'd agree with dropping frenzy, doesn't really suit a wolf (although if it's really a werewolf stuck in that form :wink:), sure feet makes sense and I'd go with shadowing instead of diving tackle, keep chasing someone nipping at their heels until it brings them down seems more in character. Wrestle seems a bit weird though, what's the thinking there?

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by duckwing »

Patchwork wrote:
Rhyoth wrote:Also, one of my coach is trying to include some true Wolf in the roster, but we still have some problem to design it :
Basic Profile : 6 3 3 7 (but we may increase MV/AG/AV)
Skills : Sure Feet (four legged player)+ No Hand (+ optionnal Frenzy)

At first, it was supposed to be a positionnal, but i'm wondering if we can make it a "linewolf" instead...
WDYT ?
You'd have to give them all wild animal :wink:

But I don't like it, I'm not a fan of actual wild animals on Blood Bowl teams and while I can imagin a werewolf taking over a pack of wolves, I don't thing the werewolf would ever be able to explain the game to the wolves well enough for them to be on a 'professional' team.

I also quiet like the idea of half bloods as the linemen, I kinda like the 6 3 3 7 statline with frenzy, seems nice and fluffy for them. I'm not sure how well that much frenzy would work. The Savage Orc team in the MBBL2 might give some idea of how good that much frenzy is.

0-16: Half Bloods 6 3 3 7 G ASP Frenzy 50k
0-4: Ulfwerenerer 6 4 2 8 GS AP Fenzy 110k
0-2: Werewolf 8 3 3 8 Claw, Frenzy, Regeneration GA SP 120.000 GP

Looks interesting to me and with the Werewolves and Ulfs added up to 0-6, seems like a nice flip of the Vampires roster... I might be the only one that wants to make them that similier to the Vampires though :P
This is a roster that I'd like to try out. Maybe lower the cost of the Half Bloods to 40k (or give them +1AV/Thick Skull at the same cost) since most of them will get themselves killed pretty soon :)
Not unplayable, but definately a tier 3 team!

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Rhyoth »

Well, our objective here is definetely not to make this team a Tier 3 team : we're not oposed to challenge, but we still like to have a decent chance to win.
So, we would enjoyed this roster much more if it was a Tier 2 team instead.
Patchwork wrote:
Rhyoth wrote:Currently, we're still following the "True Wolf" idea, so his current profile is now :

7 3 3 7 - G,A : Diving Tackle*, No Hand, Sure Feet, Wrestle : 80.000 GP
*possibly replaced by Shadowing

We dropped Frenzy, considering that, under this form, the wolf is a lot less "irritable", and has a lot more control compared to a Werewolf under his "hybrid" form.

Regarding WA, we dropped it because we considered :
_ Werewolves have some kind of telepathic link with them (the "Pack's Spirit")
_ they are some kind of former Werewolf, and "trapped" in their Wolf state, so they're still a lot smarter than a mere wolf


Of course, if we do add Wild Animal to the mix, we could lower the price to, say, around 50-60 k...
I still don't like the idea of wolves on the roster... and making them really be werewolves stuck in that form doesn't make it much better but I'd agree with dropping frenzy, doesn't really suit a wolf (although if it's really a werewolf stuck in that form :wink:), sure feet makes sense and I'd go with shadowing instead of diving tackle, keep chasing someone nipping at their heels until it brings them down seems more in character. Wrestle seems a bit weird though, what's the thinking there?
Wrestle represent the ability of a wolf to drag is prey down, waiting for the other mebers of his pack to finish him off.
To put it simply, we wanted our wolf to be able to do something like that :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7LuSx9OMgQ



Regarding linemen, we're about to drop "Half Blood" for an AV 7 player. However, this change will make the roster too fragile for me. That's why I'm trying to design another positionnal to fix that.

Yet, since i only have a limited knowledge of the WFB universe, i can't find a suitable concept for him. That's why i really need your help here :

According to you, what kind of player could match the following profile ?
_ AV 8
_ cheap (around 60.000 k)
_ a 0-4 positionnal in the Werewolf roster

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:Yet, since i only have a limited knowledge of the WFB universe, i can't find a suitable concept for him. That's why i really need your help here
Well that kinda disqualifies me, I'd bet I have even less knowledge of the WFB universe! Really when I talk about werewolves I'm doing it from a generic fantasy view, but I'm going to throw out a roster anyway :wink:

0-16 Kinfolk 6 3 3 7 G APS 40k
0-2 Wolfkin 7 3 3 7 Shadowing, no Hands, Sure feet, Wrestle GA PS 80k
0-4 Ulfwerener 6 4 2 8 Frenzy GS AP 110k
0-2 Werewolf 8 3 3 8 Claws, Frenzy, Regeneration GA SP 120k

RR 50k (hard to see higher for a team with a pack instinct)

It doesn't have the cheap positional you were asking for with AV 8 but it's already able to field 8 positionals, 2 of which can become wrestle/dodgers (although not easy to do with no hands) and 2 more that could be wrestle or block/dodgers.

or you could try

0-16 Kinfolk 6 3 3 7 G APS 40k
0-2 Half-Blood 6 3 3 8 Frenzy GS AP 60k
0-2 Wolfkin 7 3 3 7 Shadowing, no Hands, Sure feet, Wrestle GA PS 80k
0-2 Ulfwerener 6 4 2 8 Frenzy GS AP 110k
0-2 Werewolf 8 3 3 8 Claws, Frenzy, Regeneration GA SP 120k

RR 50k

Less out and out werewolves and the cheap AV8 players are only 0-2 but it's still 8 positionals, want some of those kinfolk on the pitch :wink:

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by mattgslater »

I don't think this roster is that much more fragile with the Wolfkin. He has Wrestle and A access, and isn't a dedicated (or even legal) ball-handler, so he's not a major mark. I think the Wolfkin is a little overpriced for a guy who has no advancement strategy and shouldn't go to the LOS.

I'd like to take a crack at the wolf:

0-2, 7/3/4/7 Jaws, Leap, Shadowing, Sure Feet A/GPS, not sure how to cost.

Jaws: This player has no hands, instead using his fearsome jaws to grip the ball and his opponents. If the player makes a block or is blocked, and his opponent is knocked down or placed prone as a result, this player retains his feet, regardless of the die roll or opposing skill use. The player may catch or pick up the ball in his jaws, but he must re-roll all successes on these rolls. The player may not pass or block if he has the ball in jaws (he may hand off). If a Jaws player attempts to move with the ball, he must make an AG roll at an unmodified +1 or drop the ball immediately.

So Jaws would be as good as Block against non-Block players, better than Wrestle against Wrestlers, and worthless against guys with Block, which is kind of appropriate for a wolf. And it's not No Hands, but it's pretty intimidating.

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Rhyoth »

mattgslater wrote: 0-2, 7/3/4/7 Jaws, Leap, Shadowing, Sure Feet A/GPS, not sure how to cost.
Jaws: This player has no hands, instead using his fearsome jaws to grip the ball and his opponents. If the player makes a block or is blocked, and his opponent is knocked down or placed prone as a result, this player retains his feet, regardless of the die roll or opposing skill use. The player may catch or pick up the ball in his jaws, but he must re-roll all successes on these rolls. The player may not pass or block if he has the ball in jaws (he may hand off). If a Jaws player attempts to move with the ball, he must make an AG roll at an unmodified +1 or drop the ball immediately.
I like the second part of this skill but i don't really see the need for the first part : Wrestle is just fine.
Regarding the malus on Catch/Pick up rolls, a straight -2 would avoid any conflict with the Sacred "can't reroll a reroll" Rule

Unfortunately, i think he is still too expensive to be included in this already overpriced roster.
Patchwork wrote:(...)
0-16 Kinfolk 6 3 3 7 G APS 40k
0-2 Half-Blood 6 3 3 8 Frenzy GS AP 60k
0-2 Wolfkin 7 3 3 7 Shadowing, no Hands, Sure feet, Wrestle GA PS 80k
0-2 Ulfwerener 6 4 2 8 Frenzy GS AP 110k
0-2 Werewolf 8 3 3 8 Claws, Frenzy, Regeneration GA SP 120k

RR 50k
(...)
We're currently heading to a similar roster with some tweak :
_ the wolfkin will have MV 8 for +10 k (curse you, Human Catcher :evil: )
_ we're debatting about giving Dauntless to the Kinfolk* for + 10k
_ the RR's price is also heavily debated

*i bet you don't have a suitable french translation for him, am i right ?


I still have a lot of interrogation, but i'm currently focusing on 3 points :
1) Is Dauntless the best solutipon for the "linemen" ? I can't think of any better solution right now (Frenzy is still not an option here)

2) Should we include a Big Guy ? (in which case, we'll have to find an alternative to Dauntless for the Kinfolk)

3) Which Star Players should play for Werewolves ?
Wilhelm Chaney, Morg'n'Thorg and Helmut Wulf are quite obvious (as well as Icepelt if the roster include a BG)

That's 3 slots left (or maybe only 2) for :
_Grim Ironjaw ? Mighty Zug ? Zara the Slayer ? Jordell Freshbreeze ? Count Luthor ? or even Griff Oberwald ?
However, those guy are quite expensive, so maybe i could save a slot for a cheaper Star Player like :
_Crazy Igor ? Dolfar Longstride ? Willow Rosebark ?

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Patchwork »

mattgslater wrote: I'd like to take a crack at the wolf:

0-2, 7/3/4/7 Jaws, Leap, Shadowing, Sure Feet A/GPS, not sure how to cost.

Jaws: This player has no hands, instead using his fearsome jaws to grip the ball and his opponents. If the player makes a block or is blocked, and his opponent is knocked down or placed prone as a result, this player retains his feet, regardless of the die roll or opposing skill use. The player may catch or pick up the ball in his jaws, but he must re-roll all successes on these rolls. The player may not pass or block if he has the ball in jaws (he may hand off). If a Jaws player attempts to move with the ball, he must make an AG roll at an unmodified +1 or drop the ball immediately.

So Jaws would be as good as Block against non-Block players, better than Wrestle against Wrestlers, and worthless against guys with Block, which is kind of appropriate for a wolf. And it's not No Hands, but it's pretty intimidating.
I like Jaws, I think it would be better (well... simpler) if there wasn't a re-roll on pickups and blocking or blitzing is an automatic dropped ball...

I don't like the 4 ag or leap on the wolf though. I could see 3 ag and stunty (as a wolf does strike me as hard to tackle but not because of agility). Leap just seems out of place.


Rhyoth wrote:*i bet you don't have a suitable french translation for him, am i right ?
Best I could do is ask him for directions :lol:

Rhyoth wrote:I still have a lot of interrogation, but i'm currently focusing on 3 points :
1) Is Dauntless the best solutipon for the "linemen" ? I can't think of any better solution right now (Frenzy is still not an option here)

2) Should we include a Big Guy ? (in which case, we'll have to find an alternative to Dauntless for the Kinfolk)

3) Which Star Players should play for Werewolves ?
Wilhelm Chaney, Morg'n'Thorg and Helmut Wulf are quite obvious (as well as Icepelt if the roster include a BG)

That's 3 slots left (or maybe only 2) for :
_Grim Ironjaw ? Mighty Zug ? Zara the Slayer ? Jordell Freshbreeze ? Count Luthor ? or even Griff Oberwald ?
However, those guy are quite expensive, so maybe i could save a slot for a cheaper Star Player like :
_Crazy Igor ? Dolfar Longstride ? Willow Rosebark ?
1) I don't think the kinfolk need dauntless. As it is, when you eventually max out the roster with eight positionals and baring injuries, you're only going to have three kinfolk on the pitch and while the roster doesn't have that much strength, it's not any worse then Necromantic.

2) No, not needed. Compare to the Necromantic roster.

3) Boomer Eziasson (He already plays for the Norse, gives a really cheap option... one problem might be how quickly werewolves could take advantage of any holes put in the line, maybe replace with Zara), Helmut Wulf, Crazy Igor, Wilhelm Chaney, Icepelt Hammerblow (Can't see anyone that fits better at that price range) , Morg'n'Thorg

I can't see any of Grim, Jordell, Griff, Dolfar or Willow being willing to play for them. Zug I could see playing for more teams but seeming he doesn't play for Norse, I decided against it.

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by mattgslater »

Yeah, I guess that makes more sense. 7/3/3/8 Jaws, Shadowing, Stunty, Sure Feet A/GS. 90k?

Jaws v2: Don't go down on a block if the opponent goes down. Can't act with the ball, except to hand-off to an adjacent player or move up to one square and drop/scatter the ball, which causes a turnover.

0-2 ST4 positionals and no Big Guy on a team with no passing access really really wants some Dauntless.

@ Rhyoth: Jaws and Wrestle are polar opposites. Watch what happens on a both-down. Wrestle beats Block, but may or may not beat nothing. Block beats nothing, but loses to Wrestle. Nothing never wins, but may negate Wrestle if the Wrestle player wants the AV rolls and/or turnover. Jaws loses to Block, beats nothing, and beats Wrestle with the caveat that Wrestle doesn't get hurt or turn over. Which is perfect. A tough, fierce guy can pop a dog as it comes in, and it'll go down, or at least scramble to recover its courage. But if you grapple with it, you'll either get bit or have your hands full not getting bit.

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Rhyoth »

mattgslater wrote:Yeah, I guess that makes more sense. 7/3/3/8 Jaws, Shadowing, Stunty, Sure Feet A/GS. 90k?

Jaws v2: Don't go down on a block if the opponent goes down. Can't act with the ball, except to hand-off to an adjacent player or move up to one square and drop/scatter the ball, which causes a turnover.

0-2 ST4 positionals and no Big Guy on a team with no passing access really really wants some Dauntless.

@ Rhyoth: Jaws and Wrestle are polar opposites. Watch what happens on a both-down. Wrestle beats Block, but may or may not beat nothing. Block beats nothing, but loses to Wrestle. Nothing never wins, but may negate Wrestle if the Wrestle player wants the AV rolls and/or turnover. Jaws loses to Block, beats nothing, and beats Wrestle with the caveat that Wrestle doesn't get hurt or turn over. Which is perfect. A tough, fierce guy can pop a dog as it comes in, and it'll go down, or at least scramble to recover its courage. But if you grapple with it, you'll either get bit or have your hands full not getting bit.
Well, i still don't think it fits this player : we want a tenacious hunter, able to track down his prey and bring it down, never releasing his grip once he has bitten.

With that in mind, Wrestle is the perfect match : no matter how good you are at blocking, you will have trouble to stay on your feet when this unusual player will jump at your face, or take a good bite at your leg.

Besides, i cannot agree with anything that makes Block even slightly better.

Patchwork wrote: 1) I don't think the kinfolk need dauntless. As it is, when you eventually max out the roster with eight positionals and baring injuries, you're only going to have three kinfolk on the pitch and while the roster doesn't have that much strength, it's not any worse then Necromantic.
We absolutely don't want to have a "hobgobelin" lineman, so we have to find a good way to "customize" him.

Then, Dauntless appears to be an interresting answer :
a) it gives the guy a lot of flavor
b) even if no other "older" werewolf has this skill, it makes a lot of sense for a "younger" werewolf
c) while this team has almost everything it need to play against more agile opponent, i'm quite worried about their perfomance against stronger team :
_ compared to Necromantic, all players with ST skills lacks Blocking skills, will be outpositionned quite often due to Frenzy, and their relative mobility barely compensate their average armor.

Still, i have several concerns, especially :
a) an all-out Dauntless is probably not worth it (like the all-out Horns for Chaos) : we'll probably have to give this team a price break somewhere
b) this team may be too good against Lizardmen...

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by mattgslater »

I just can't get my head around how a wolf wrestles. What does it wrestle with? It has no hands, and can't even bite effectively unless it has its footing. Also, why is a critter with big jaws less likely to get AV rolls? I'd like to see it knock down non-Block players, not just place them prone. Moreover, the way to take out a big dog is with an aggressive attack, a sharp check. Why should this not be the case with a wolf?

I agree that the wolf should be a great hunter, able to bring his prey down with ease. What I've got there works like Block when it comes to bringing stuff down, and has the added bonus that it's Wrestle-proof. But wolves don't block well (not enough mass) or wrestle at all (no hands, no reach), and shouldn't be in a position to use those skills per se. Also, wolves should be vulnerable to attacks from scary (Block) guys, even as they're pretty fearsome against tricky (Wrestle) guys.

Oh, and don't worry about designing not to make Block better. This only makes Block better in the sense that having a player without Block makes Block on the other side better, and this guy doesn't have Block in his progression. If you're worried about this team's vulnerability to Block-intensive teams, then include a "minder" position with Block or Wrestle. It's not worth it to walk away from fluff just to hose a skill that you think is overpowered.

Alternative to Dauntless Kinfolk:
0-16 Kinfolk 6/3/3/7 Thick Skull GS/AP 50k

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Re: Werewolf roster

Post by Patchwork »

Rhyoth wrote:With that in mind, Wrestle is the perfect match : no matter how good you are at blocking, you will have trouble to stay on your feet when this unusual player will jump at your face, or take a good bite at your leg.

Besides, i cannot agree with anything that makes Block even slightly better.
Wolves are good hunters sure, but that's as a pack that goes after the easier targets. They know when not to attack something... but even after saying all that I'm fine with wrestle.


Rhyoth wrote: We absolutely don't want to have a "hobgobelin" lineman, so we have to find a good way to "customize" him.

Then, Dauntless appears to be an interresting answer :
a) it gives the guy a lot of flavor
b) even if no other "older" werewolf has this skill, it makes a lot of sense for a "younger" werewolf
c) while this team has almost everything it need to play against more agile opponent, i'm quite worried about their perfomance against stronger team :
_ compared to Necromantic, all players with ST skills lacks Blocking skills, will be out positionned quite often due to Frenzy, and their relative mobility barely compensate their average armor.

Still, i have several concerns, especially :
a) an all-out Dauntless is probably not worth it (like the all-out Horns for Chaos) : we'll probably have to give this team a price break somewhere
b) this team may be too good against Lizardmen...
I think of the kinfolk as thrall not hobgoblins... for all the difference that makes :P

But I don't think the Kinfolk need to be more flavorful, that's what the werewolves are there for. If you have to add dauntless to the roster, give it to the half bloods (would suit them as well) instead of the kinfolk. The Necromantic team doesn't have that many more players with ST that begin with Blocking skills, just the wights. I agree with the extra mobility been compensated by the lack of armor though and their is regeneration to take into consideration as well.

Have you decided on the re-roll costs? That would makes a little difference on the need for a price break?

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