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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:36 pm 
Legend
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Hi all,
I'm back, and I updated the list a bit
*Undead ghouls were renamed ghoul runners
*Rogue Elves were renamed Ithilmar Elves, and had new fluff added.
*On the daemon team MA6/5 were swapped between BLs and PBs - making PBs MA6.

I'm still looking for ideas on how to buff haflings.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:56 pm 
Legend
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OK - a few points that I'd better reply to:

Patchwork said:
Quote:
I do understand why you want to Nerf dwarves but I prefered juggernauth on the Troll Slayers instead of block.

I like that too.
I just think it's too small a hit.

Mattgslater said:
Quote:
What I'm saying is that "fun" trumps "balanced" anyday.

And apparently, "whining" always trumps both of those :wink:
Nah - I get what you're saying. I just think that 4 überteams is not really "fun".

Quote:
I totally understand that balancing down is easier than balancing up, because there's a ceiling you can't go over, but the floor is pretty forgiving. I see that, and I'm telling you it's not worth it anyway.

I guess my real argument can be summed up in one word.
Warhammer.
Or to pick a clearer word: Power-Creep.

If everything keeps going up, the spiral never stops.
In fact, that's the crushing argument you meet when you want to buff anything - "Which team will be next".
(Well, it's that our "you won't be happy until all teams are 0-16 6338")

Quote:
1) Wrestle is a Dwarf-tax, with very little added value...Why play a team that sells out for lino value, after the linos are nerfed.

Sure, you could call it a dwarf tax. It just don't think it's quite that bad.
As for the teams appeal: high AV + thick skull + with S-skills on everybody.

Quote:
2) It's not fluffy at all. Dwarfs are really short, so they're good at getting in underneath somebody and exploding up into the chest or head, or at spearing your thigh/knee/shin/groin. They're also very hard to get under and stand up. That's called the Block skill. Also, Dwarfs have really short arms and poor reach. They would be the worst wrestlers....

This argument doesn't really work for me. Seems rather subjective.
One might equally well argue that you shouldn't have Block if you can't reach your opponents chin, or that they're the perfect size for grabbing your knees, toppling you without a proper fight (wrestle)

Quote:
I'm firmly of the opinion that a balance of 10-20% Dwarf teams is very good for the health of a league, especially if the team to beat is dodgy. If you call that a bad thing, I shrug and say "it is what it is."

Agreed.
I'm just saying that they can't be a universal balancing system, bevause many leagues don't have a dwarf team.
And that the suggested team has both block and tackle - still unpleasant for dodge dependant teams.

Oxynot and Rhyoth both suggested new ogre positionals.
It could work.
But new positionals is something I've wanted to avoid on all these teams. IMO, it's a turn-off for a lot of leagues.

Rhyoth said:
Quote:
Yet, if you still want to adjust the RR, I think you should at least respect those two guidelines :
_ all Nercromancers should have the same Reroll's price (whatever the price)
_ there is absolutely no reason for Ogres to have a cheaper Reroll than Chaos Dwarves

Obviously, I'm a lot less big on reroll cost than you are.
*But I will say that neither the khemri or vampire team has a necromancer. So maybe their on-pitch mind-control is easier to perform than the control of a necromancer head coach.
*And that chaos dwarfs employ hobgoblin slaves. Snotlings aren't slaves (AFAIK).

Cheers all
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:11 pm 
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To give just short feed back:

I'm a fan of the bretonnian team and I think they look quite polished on the paper and I hope that when the new FumBBl-Client goes live with customizable leagues, plasmoid is going to open up one including this team. :-)

I really dislike the Tilea and the Ithilmar. They don't really fill a new play style niche and look rather bland.
About the Daemons: they look quit interesting, but I think they're really hard to balance because of they're quite flexible setup. Only I dislike they have just one daemon type that can hope of handling the ball, so the team won't work without horrors. The other daemons are more or less interchangeable, although I would tend to field as many St4 players as possible - I mean 8 St4 (4 of them blitz with St5 - YAY) players are just sweet. But still perhaps you could reconsider the daemon balance.

Overall your changes look fine, I'm curious whether you have tested how the changed humans play out and if that change is enough... but oh well, we discussed that before in another thread...

Just a curious note: What do you think about ghouls losing dodge/fend but receiving regenerate instead? I know for example a lot of necromantic players which don't employ ghouls at all because they die too fast.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:18 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
Quote:
I totally understand that balancing down is easier than balancing up, because there's a ceiling you can't go over, but the floor is pretty forgiving. I see that, and I'm telling you it's not worth it anyway.

I guess my real argument can be summed up in one word.
Warhammer.
Or to pick a clearer word: Power-Creep.

If everything keeps going up, the spiral never stops.
Power creep happens when the good get better, not when the good stay the same and the bad get better, unless the bad get better than the good.

I don't see any power creep in Blood Bowl. I mean, none at all, of any sort. There have been balance issues, but BB has been spared the back-and-forth buffing that's done so much damage to WFB and oh-so-many other games. The development of this game has always been done with such an intense concern for power creep, that the four teams you're nerfing are three of the six teams listed on the back cover of the 3E Handbook, and one from Death Zone.

Like I said, there's a ceiling you can't go over. That ceiling is the key. If you look at the top 5-7 teams in BB, you'll see that they're all pretty competitive against one another in terms of playing vs. the field in a league format, and everything else ranges down from there, with the best of the rest being nearly as good as the least of the top 5, and the best of the rest of the rest nearly as good as that.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:19 pm 
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Had a bit of a read through and I'll add my thoughts....

Dwarves:

I've gotta agree about wrestle for block on the dwarves would be a nerf too far, MA4 and wrestle don't mix. My problem for dwarves is the linos having the block/tackle combo which destroys stunty teams. I'd rather they lost tackle and swapped it for something else a bit more fluffy, possibly standfirm, but if that were deemed too good, then break tackle (if they just lost a skill, then they would need a price break too imo and that would actually probably make them better). Tackle is a bit fluffier for CDs as they are slavers and need a means of stopping their captives from running away, but they also maim stunties, so I'd prefer it if they got grab instead.

I'd like to see the blitzers have tackle too for 90k if the blockers lost tackle (as it is, the only point of them is their AG3 and to a lesser extent MA5).

Slayers could lose block, or have it swapped for juggernaught.

Halflings:

AV8 doesn't feel right and if the price were increased to 40k, then it might actually make the team perform worse (say 12 halflings on a team = 120K added to TV, no Masterchef, almost enough for a wizard etc). AV7 @ 30k would be fine though.

What about 3 trees? I'd also add NoS to the trees for 10k to help the Halflings, but slightly nerf the Woodelves.

Woodelves:

Wardancers are what make the team too good at the imo, but I'd rather they lost block than dodge as it's fluffier and although it would decrease their survivability by about the same amount, it would stop the wardancers leaping into the cage and knocking down the ball carrier quite so easily to begin with, which is where I see the woodies are overpowered (against rookie or near rookie teams).

I'd also give back the catchers their MA9 for sprint as that was just an ugly nerf and harmed the team in the long term where they aren't actually overpowered (although i can see that isn't to be addressed in this exercise).

The other buffs/nerfs you suggest look ok, but I would ask on what criteria you've decided on the changes, aren't Necro's the best team according to your stats!? (I would also think that Slann need a slight buff-probably just reducing the blitzer's price by 10k, possibly Underworld too).

Oh, I'd also let stunty teams have Star Players to bring the team over 16 players. The Gobbo's biggest problem is running out of players due to running a team of 14 so they can hire stars and then sustaining injuries/sending offs which make them undermanned.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:18 am 
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Aliboon wrote:
I'd also give back the catchers their MA9 for sprint as that was just an ugly nerf and harmed the team in the long term where they aren't actually overpowered (although i can see that isn't to be addressed in this exercise).

Ok but make them cost 100k then.

MA9 90k Catchers are basically Gutter Runners that get Catch for an additional 10k (and GRs are what makes the Skavens a good team) or Human Catchers that get +MA and +AG for an additional 20k. The nerf was justified, and they still get Sprint (arguably a bad skill though) for free.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:47 pm 
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Quote:
MA9 90k Catchers are basically Gutter Runners that get Catch for an additional 10k (and GRs are what makes the Skavens a good team) or Human Catchers that get +MA and +AG for an additional 20k. The nerf was justified, and they still get Sprint (arguably a bad skill though) for free.


Eh?

They were grunners with catch, they paid an extra 10k for it, not free!? :wink: Ok, they are a good deal compared to human catchers, but compared to Elf and High Elf catchers? I know which I'd prefer.

The nerf was justified to the team, but not to the player. It is the wardancer that breaks them, arguably the best player in the game, but cheaper than a bull centaur and most of the big guys. Compare them to pretty much any other player and they are a great deal (too good in fact).

And grunners in isolation aren't what makes skaven a good team, they also have cheapish linos, mutate, are fast and have access to ST skills on what amounts to an agility team. And their thrower is up with the best too, easily the best AG3 thrower anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:42 am 
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Aliboon wrote:
They were grunners with catch, they paid an extra 10k for it, not free!? :wink:

Yup, that's what I said. 10k for a skill is an excellent deal in my book, since a skill normally costs 20k TV-wise.

Aliboon wrote:
Ok, they are a good deal compared to human catchers, but compared to Elf and High Elf catchers? I know which I'd prefer.

Human being the team of reference, I would argue that their cost should be aligned on the Human Catcher in priority (or the cost of the latter should be adjusted first). I agree that Elf Catchers are exceptional players anyway, and that High Elf Catchers are better players than MA8 Wood Elf Catchers, but they are not better than MA9 Catchers, since the latter start with Dodge, and therefore are always 1 skill ahead. On the long run ST3 will shine, obviously. Even with the nerfed Catcher, Wood Elf retain significant advantages though, such as a Big Guy, the fastest Line Elf, perhaps the best Thrower on the long run and of course the WDs. You cannot have everything.

Aliboon wrote:
The nerf was justified to the team, but not to the player. It is the wardancer that breaks them, arguably the best player in the game, but cheaper than a bull centaur and most of the big guys. Compare them to pretty much any other player and they are a great deal (too good in fact).

I agree that the WD is the main reason why WEs have such an excellent record, but the one-turning Catcher was another. Nerfing the broken WDs while keeping the excellent Catchers would probably make the team quite similar to High and Pro Elf. I guess that's why this was not the way chosen by the designers of the LRB6, and if you think a more balanced team is more interesting to play, feel free to play with one of those rosters.

Aliboon wrote:
And grunners in isolation aren't what makes skaven a good team, they also have cheapish linos, mutate, are fast and have access to ST skills on what amounts to an agility team. And their thrower is up with the best too, easily the best AG3 thrower anyway.

Of course the whole team is important, but the mere fact that you describe the Skavens as an agility team clearly underlines the exceptional importance of GRs for them. Humans have a very similar profile to Skavens, but I would have a hard time classifying them as an agility team, and an even harder time considering them as a powerhouse.

Humans have access to 4 Blitzers (which largely compensate the lack of Mutation access on those), much better Linemen (for which durability is key), slightly inferior Throwers, and, in my opinion, a better Big Guy (cheaper and better suited as a much-needed Guard roadblock). Mutation access is basically useless on Linerats, Throwers and even the Rat Ogre. So far, the Humans have a significant advantage, and they would be a better team were it not for the Gutter Runners, who outclass the Human Catchers.

To summarize, I am not denying that the WE Catcher was severely nerfed with the LRB6, but I contend that he is still an above average player, and that Wood Elves are still an excellent roster despite that.


Last edited by Kort on Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:19 am 
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Mutation on the rat ogre aren't useless.
A double will give you claw after block which I find better than pro.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:36 am 
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Greyhound wrote:
Mutation on the rat ogre aren't useless.
A double will give you claw after block which I find better than pro.

That is indeed a fearsome combination, but it requires getting 2 double skills. Furthermore, +ST is a valid choice on a 6-6 roll, so basically we are looking at a 5/36 probability per skill-up. Rat Ogres have AV8 and are quite fragile, so I still see that as an outside chance, not something to base a strategy on.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:29 am 
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Let me put it in a better way, Rat Ogres have the potential to be as lethal as a Snow Troll, and on a team which only require a tiny gap to slip through it's a great opportunity.

This is how I build my Rat Ogre:
1. Break Tackle, I use him to open gaps and crowd surf, and ultimately this skill really help him increase his reliability. I don't have to stand where Frenzy sent me (sideline) and I can pull out of the bad fights.
2. By now if I don't have a double then I go for juggernaut, as you said it's a monster which will suffer injuries and I don't really want to plan long term with him, it's time to burn him with blitz until he SPP up or die.
3. If I have a double only now then claw... Sure Block is best and I would take it first for first or second skill, but by now I have juggernaut and claw will help me open the teams my team struggle with.

So overall I like mutations on my Rat Ogre, I think they're worth 10k alone.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:48 am 
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Ok, that makes sense. Juggernaut is the key, thanks for sharing your build 8)


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:40 am 
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Failing claw on the 3rd skill I go with pile on... I don't know what level 5 rat ogres look like :)

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:56 pm 
Legend
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Hi all,
Mattgslater said:
Quote:
Power creep happens when the good get better, not when the good stay the same and the bad get better, unless the bad get better than the good.
I don't see any power creep in Blood Bowl. I mean, none at all, of any sort.


Oh, I agree.
But official Blood Bowl hasn't done what I'm doing here.

Simply put, if the tier0 star at full strength, then tier1 teams would have to be buffed.
If just one of those teams got too big a buff, you couldn't take it back, because players will seemingly seem entitled to whatever advantage they have. So you'd buff again, and again, and again...

I just don't think that dwarf, wood elf, undead and orc coaches deserve anything - except being somewhere in tier1.
It's like hearing Darkson or Dark Lord explaining that established teams deserve to auto-beat newcomer teams, because the coaches have put time and effort into building their teams.
To me, that doesn't make for a very good game.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Leaving Wood Elves out of the equation (I think that's the exception to the rule), have you thought about running with buffs only and then seeing if you end up with a few teams that just feel superior?

Part of this is that I suspect you'll see a ripple effect from nerfed Dwarfs, and no net W/L effect from Orcs (just a less fun team). Part of this is that I see the concept of a "power spectrum" as rather unavoidable in this game.

But far be it from me to accuse others of Quixotism.

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What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.


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