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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:51 am 
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
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Smurf wrote:
Not allowing amazons does seem rather sexist. It's the only full female team, something which may attract female players too, again something this hobby drastically lacks.


It's all in your head. I have an all female necromantic team.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:48 am 
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Lamanzer wrote:
Because we think this team is a nonsense.

Rochambeau is not a good idea for a bloodbowl team...

We have tried to change it (We have watched all topics, doubleskulls one for exemple: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=27169) but no-one wants to play the new one... So We have chosen to discard it (it was probably not the best idea, but...).

This year I will try Doubleskulls one in our secondship, to test :

0-16 Linewomen 6337 Fend GA-SP 50k
0-4 Catchers 8237 Diving Catch, Dodge GA-SP 70k
0-2 Throwers 6337 Hail Mary Pass, Safe Throw, Pass GAP-S 70k
0-4 Blitzers 7338 Wrestle GAS/P 90k
Rerolls 50k.


How is it nonsense? Do you mean it's too good? It can't be that they're too bad because you haven't forbidden goblins and halflings so I don't understand what your problem with them is.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:57 pm 
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I exaggerate voluntarily, but it is something like that:

"You lose against Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf.
You win against everyone in a new league (10-15 games), (except Dwarf, Chaos dwarf, Norse.
After 20 matchs, your team is boring to play (with and against) and you still lose everytime against Dwarfs..."

This team is like the game "Stone-leaf(or bag)-scissors" (shifumi, Rochambeau in other languages...)
and we think, it's not a good choice for a bloodbowl team.

But if anyone has any arguments to convince me that I am wrong, I listen with interrest. (I'm not happy to discard a team. So ideas are welcome)

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Smurf wrote:
Other teams, like faster moving than Amazons, could go with a tackle shadowing combo and really slow the Amazon pace down.

Sounds to me that the anti amazon league lacks imagination of using skills to upset your opponent.


You certainly can build an anti-Amazon team, but it is rarely worth it in most situations.

I am playing Humans in a league and there is an Amazon team, but there is also an Orc team, a Necro team, a Chaos Dwarf team, a custom-designed bashy roster, another Human team, etc. Tackle and Shadowing are not going to be that useful against those 5 teams, and the league is probably too short to earn those two skills anyway. So my current strategy is to plan for a loss against Amazons, and hope that the Dwarfs will decimate them.

In my opinion, the problem with Amazons is that they are a badly designed team, composed of 6337 Dodge clones, with access to 4 cheap Dodge/Block Blitzers that can get Guard at 6 SPP, cheap players and rerolls.


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Hi Lamanzer,
interesting list - most of it makes a lot of sense to me :D

- Orc team is splitted in two teams: Orcs (without Troll & Goblins) and Greenskins (Without Throwers & 0-2 blitzers)
Mattgslater mentioned something similar to me. Not quite my thing, but sounds like it works. Is Orcs the stronger of the two?

- Dwarf: Troll Slayers have Juggernaught instead of Block and reroll cost 60000.
Sounds about right :)
Have you had many dwarf teams? I'd love to know how strong/weak that is?

- Wood Elfs have only two catchers
OK. I'd think wood elfs would still dominate the first 5-10 games.

- Undead zombies are 0-6
Does that do anything? On a 14 man roster with 4 ghouls, you'd still have no skellies.

- Human catcher has AV+1
Big fan :). I went with Diving Catch based on a poll - but I think humans are in the most trouble against bashy teams, so the extra AV would be a very nice help.

- Claws cannot stack with Mighty Blow (but Mighty blow can be used to damage roll)
I'm not sure the nerf is needed - but I do think you've managed to keep the skill interesting. It's still quite good, but it will make the other mutations a bit more appealing. Nice one, actually :D

- Amazons are not allowed
I can't say I get this.
I think a lot of other teams than dwarfs should be able to compete with amazons. Anything with a bit of ST can set up some good road blocks. And geez, they're MA6 - it's not like you can't keep up. Besides, every team should pick up a tackle player early. Not just because of amazons. One tackle guy doing the blitzing helps a lot.

and it's running quite well...
Congrats :D

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:30 pm 
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exactly... 2 blitzers with tackle and you have job done.

My WE dominated the first 14 games... why? Opponents did not use tacke, I used it as a first skill for my Wardancers, then sidestep and some shadow. Makes all the other dodgers fearful.

I can't wait for a double so I can get Might blow.

Pass block and tackle is also good, you can stick to the buggers!

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:05 am 
Legend
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Smurf wrote:
My WE dominated the first 14 games... why? Opponents did not use tacke, I used it as a first skill for my Wardancers, then sidestep and some shadow. Makes all the other dodgers fearful.


I'm not sure if shadowing is really worth it on a dancer in fact can't say I've ever taken it on anyone as there are usually better skills to take.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:00 am 
mattgslater's court jester

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spubbbba wrote:
Smurf wrote:
My WE dominated the first 14 games... why? Opponents did not use tacke, I used it as a first skill for my Wardancers, then sidestep and some shadow. Makes all the other dodgers fearful.


I'm not sure if shadowing is really worth it on a dancer in fact can't say I've ever taken it on anyone as there are usually better skills to take.


Your in Bristol too? Where do you play?

Well I have my reasons and my Wardancers are still good. Lacking doubles for the whole team except both throwers!

So far my shadowing tackler has prevented a touch down. I'm thinking of putting it on my catchers too.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:26 am 
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plasmoid wrote:
Besides, every team should pick up a tackle player early.

Define early?
Stunties, Vampire, or basically most teams without block or G access to start with take tackle as a first skill?
If you play lizzies, tackle on the saurus can work against amazon but you're still better off taking block and focus (early on) to whack the linos... And block will be handy when facing teams without dodge (Orc, dwarf, chaos come to mind).

I agree that you can sometimes manage the amazons but I disagree that all teams can take tackle early

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Hi plasmoid
plasmoid wrote:
- Orc team is splitted in two teams: Orcs (without Troll & Goblins) and Greenskins (Without Throwers & 0-2 blitzers)
Mattgslater mentioned something similar to me. Not quite my thing, but sounds like it works. Is Orcs the stronger of the two?

Greenskins: It looks like a big bazaar, but it's nice to play. funny.. :smoking:
Orcs: they are still good enough to win :wink:



plasmoid wrote:
- Dwarf: Troll Slayers have Juggernaught instead of Block and reroll cost 60000.
Sounds about right :)
Have you had many dwarf teams? I'd love to know how strong/weak that is?

Only one dwarf team (with an average Player). This nerf seems to be not enough, but removing block on the lineman is too much. Not enough games played to have good feedback


plasmoid wrote:
- Wood Elfs have only two catchers
OK. I'd think wood elfs would still dominate the first 5-10 games.

Yes, but it's difficult to change wardancer, so we have done like BBRC: juste a little move and wait & see... :wink:


plasmoid wrote:
- Undead zombies are 0-6
Does that do anything? On a 14 man roster with 4 ghouls, you'd still have no skellies.

No... But Undead coach is Big and strong so it's difficult to do "0-4" for Zombies :orc: But it's that we want to do as soon as possible.


plasmoid wrote:
- Human catcher has AV+1
Big fan :). I went with Diving Catch based on a poll - but I think humans are in the most trouble against bashy teams, so the extra AV would be a very nice help.

Not enough games played (humans teams are rookie teams)... "AV+1 catchers" seems to be a good buff but humans still suffer to open gap.


Plasmoid wrote:
- Claws cannot stack with Mighty Blow (but Mighty blow can be used to damage roll)
I'm not sure the nerf is needed - but I do think you've managed to keep the skill interesting. It's still quite good, but it will make the other mutations a bit more appealing. Nice one, actually :D

That's THE problem for us... We have run a Cyanid league and a lot of teams were destroyed by a very advanced Chaos team... So We have choose to change claws for our miniatures league.

4 options were discussed:
1) Claws on a double roll only:
==> Not so bad, but "double roll" go to claws and we don't know how to deal with the snow troll
2) Claws and mighty blow cannot stack
==> The most simple to do, but nerf is probably to high.
3) Only 2 claws/mighty blows allowed for a team.
==> It seems to be interesting, but no test was done.
4) No Change
=> a lot of people think claws is not a problem... Not sure...

If someone can help me to do the best choice... It will be appreciated. 8)



Plasmoid wrote:
- Amazons are not allowed
I can't say I get this.
I think a lot of other teams than dwarfs should be able to compete with amazons. Anything with a bit of ST can set up some good road blocks. And geez, they're MA6 - it's not like you can't keep up. Besides, every team should pick up a tackle player early. Not just because of amazons. One tackle guy doing the blitzing helps a lot.

Kort has found the words that I'm not able to write :wink:
Kort wrote:
Amazons are a badly designed team

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Lamanzer wrote:
Plasmoid wrote:
- Claws cannot stack with Mighty Blow (but Mighty blow can be used to damage roll)
I'm not sure the nerf is needed - but I do think you've managed to keep the skill interesting. It's still quite good, but it will make the other mutations a bit more appealing. Nice one, actually :D

[i]That's THE problem for us... We have run a Cyanid league and a lot of teams were destroyed by a very advanced Chaos team... So We have choose to change claws for our miniatures league.

4 options were discussed:
1) Claws on a double roll only:
==> Not so bad, but "double roll" go to claws and we don't know how to deal with the snow troll
2) Claws and mighty blow cannot stack
==> The most simple to do, but nerf is probably to high.
3) Only 2 claws/mighty blows allowed for a team.
==> It seems to be interesting, but no test was done.
4) No Change
=> a lot of people think claws is not a problem... Not sure...


FFS people, if you hate claw so much, take a team of AV 7 players and then laugh as all his claw is wasted.

I'm firmly in the (4) camp btw :]


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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:40 am 
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so am I, (4th option)

I haven't seen many CLAW team win much seasons either. They are healthy destroying AV9 before they get too overskilled.
Also Claw team have plenty of AV8/7 which should be easy to kill as well.

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:19 am 
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Hi Greyhound,
fair enough - gobbos and halflings with zero access to G-skills is the exception.
Everyone else has a fair shot at it.
And this isn't just about amazons. Quite a few teams have a dodge starting player, giving them a decent shot at a blodge ball carrier by game 2.

I know the lure of "gotta have block", but personally I've regretted delaying tackle quite a few times.
Wrestle (or frenzy) can be a fine substitute.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:10 pm 
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An update about our league...

Claws return to its... :wink:

(After reading all topics about "claws problem", I think if the majority says that it is balanced, it must be... :roll: )

Wait & see... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl
 Post Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:45 am 
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Actually, I think it was Galak who made this point, not sure. In any event I read is somewhere on the interwebs and it's just me parrotting:

Cyanide league has a limited team list which is skewed towards heavy armour, making Claw more valuable in that particular setting. This does not apply to the whole of BB, just this flavour of it.

In Cyanide the teams are: Dwarf, Chaos, Orc, Skaven, Wood Elf, Human, Dark Elf, Lizardmen, Goblin.

This is skewed towards the heavy armour teams. Only 3, skaven, wood elf and goblin, have a majority of players with av7. Against the other 6 teams, claw is a great investment as they are mostly av8 or 9. Hence in the Cyanide league, where the team choice is more limited and skewed towards heavy armour, the value of Claw increases.

Just as if you were playing in a league with many amazon, stunty and elf teams, Tackle would have increased value.

Similarly other skills are chosen based on the predominance of which team types, or even skills, you'll be playing against the most often.

So, yes, I agree that in the bashy leagues, such as the Cyanide league (Legends should change this a bit), Claw is a highly valuable skill that you will indeed see alot of. In leagues with lots of Dodge around, Tackle will be prefered. One old lrb4 TT league I used to play in had a preponderance of Frenzy. Every team had at least 1 model with Frenzy on it. As a result lots of Sidestep and Standfirm started being taken because their value increased as the number of frenziers in the league increased. Now, we'd probably all just have Fend instead :]

TL:DR version: take your experience of Claw in the Cyanide league with a grain of salt. Not all leagues have this much AV in them.


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