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Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:40 am
by drathul
I agree with the sentiment. I too dislike the tiered system.

For goblins I'd rather remove loner from the trolls or grant them general access or both.
I think a gobbo team with two loner free trolls who have normal access to block would be a lot more competitive and put them in the tier 1 level.

I'd do a similar thing with halflings; increase their AV to 7 and remove loner and from the trees and grant them general access.

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:10 am
by plasmoid
Hi Spubbbba and all,
discussion of the 4 homemade teams should probably be redirected here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=31048&start=0

Thanks :D
Martin

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:22 am
by plasmoid
Hi Matt, Kort and Drathul, (and Oxynot)
thanks for the relatively positive response.
I'd like to know which parts you do like as well as which ones you don't.
That goes for anyone else as well :D

I never expected anyone to love all of this.
But I do hope that it could serve as inspiration for some leagues, perhaps using some of the tweaks that they did like.


Kort - I left amazons out because I have no data showing them to be all that powerful.
I've also played them, and didn't find them all that great.
Sure, they can have a lot of blodge. But if everybody takes it, then they have no versatility skills until quite a bit into team development.
And blodge on a sub par statline just isn't "all that".

For the rest of the comments, I'll get back to them this evening :)

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:22 am
by Thadrin
MA4 and Wrestle?
AV8 Halflings?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry, that was meant to be a joke wasn't it?

I'd actually be fine with the rest of the changes (I think, may have missed some)...most are very minor, though I wouldn't allow those new teams (maybe with the exception of Brettonia) anywhere near my league. I hate the entire concept of the other 3
* Daemons should loathe each other: my picture of chaos is per the old Slaves to Darkness and Lost and Damned books, where the different powers rarely if ever cooperated.
* Av9 Elves? just NO.
* Mixed race with free choice? that's just asking to be busted wide open.

To be honest though, I LIKE the Tier system we have.

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:09 pm
by GalakStarscraper
Don't agree with removing the tiers. The tiers have a very legit reason for being in the game and I know a lot of coaches that take delight into playing the challenge provided by Tier 2 and 3 teams.

I'm not sure I would have been around to become part of the BBRC if all the teams were Tier 1 in ability ... (would have gotten bored).

That said ... for some leagues what Martin proposes will be what they want (we see folks come in wanting equality on multiple occassions) ... the change offer options for them to consider.

Galak

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:22 pm
by mattgslater
plasmoid wrote:Hi Matt, Kort and Drathul, (and Oxynot)
thanks for the relatively positive response.
I'd like to know which parts you do like as well as which ones you don't.
1) Nerfs lead to bad blood even when they work, but buffs only cause problems when they go too far. Unless there's one specific problem player (coughcoughWardancercough), I think it's probably smarter to try to buff the weaker teams than to nerf the tougher ones.

2) I don't think there's any way to balance some of the teams at exactly the level of the existing peak. You need a "tiered" system in order to maintain the 24 races as-is, and I don't think your fixes are going to get rid of it. I do think you can, say, bring Humans a little closer to the best teams, and make it so that a mediocre coach can sometimes win with an advanced team.

3) I totally agree there are some teams that need tweaking. Humans could be better, Wardancers are too good, and there's zero harm in MA6 Snotlings, for instance. Vampires, Goblins and Halflings are fertile ground for house-rules, whether they need it or not. You can "go too far" and still "not go far enough."

4) Your "tyranny of the masses" strategy seems to be working okay. The conversation has been intense and most of your finalist answers seem to have been fun.

5) I, for one, really like the team power disparities. If I want to be smashy, I play Nurgle. If one of my other coaches wants to be smashy, he plays Orcs. It all works out.

6) Seeing the nerf on Dwarfs, I'd immediately move into an Elves Only mode in an effort to convince the commissioner to change it. Dwarfs are the immune system of BB; tweak them at your peril.

7) Seeing the nerf on Orcs, I'd decide that this meant I'm not to play them, and I'd be very dismayed. I don't think it'll have any meaningful effect on the team's power level (Gobs, Linos and Throwers are all flavor pieces) but it does mean that there's no longer a bashy passing team.

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:13 pm
by Rhyoth
I also think Tiers should remain in Blood Bowl, like some sort of handicap system.
However, IMHO, narrowing the gap between Tiers would make the game more enjoyable.


Although, while a more balanced game would sure be a good thing, it's even more important to remain coherent with the background/fluff. With that in mind, i see several issues :

1) Any team using Necromancy / Mind control / Slavery should NOT have a Reroll under 70.000 GP

2) Your Undead ghouls are different from Necromantic's : one should be renamed
(since we're talking about Undead Ghouls, trading Dodge for Fend looks like a huge nerf : maybe you could consider at least a price drop, or giving them Regen ?)

3) Regarding Dwarves and their Blockers
3.1) I don't see any reason to rename them (as long as they still have Tackle)
3.2) Wrestle just doesn't fit Dwarves (those little guys know how to stay on their feet !))
3.3) what about Juggernaut instead of Block for Trollslayers ?

4) Why did you limit Goblins to 0-2 : having 0-4 gobos is much more fun, and it's far from being overpowered...

5) AV 9 Elves ???
note : although, AV 8 Halflings is fun and does make sense, if we rename them Hobbits...

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:59 am
by plasmoid
Hi all,
phew - lots of good stuff to comment on. Where to start...?
I guess I should probably start by saying that:

Tiers
I fully understand that a lot of coaches like the 3 (or 4) tier system. But based on the comments there are also coaches/leagues that agree with this. I know that my stuff will only appeal to the latter.

It won't sway anyone, but let me at least explain my position:
"1-tier BB" was just too catchy a title to pass up. But in reality, there are still 3 tiers. We could call them tier a (top of tier 1), tier b (middle of tier 1) and tier c (bottom of tier 1). So all I really wanted was to narrow the gap.

I prefer the narrower gap, because it means more variety and fun any both league and tournament settings, because the (previously) weaker teams will get played more. It'll be fun on the board, rather than just fun on a page.

Finally, I think it is a great starting point of all the teams are somewhat equal. Coaches that are too good for their league could then play any team, by using the simple trick of removing 0-2 (or 0-4) positionals - rather than be stuck with the same old stunty teams forver. I think it is a lot easier to downsize teams like that without breaking the game, than it is for leagues to add stuff and maintain the balance (like I, hopefully) just did.

Cheers
Martin

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:10 am
by plasmoid
Halflings
OK, the AV8 halflings definately seem to be the most controversial buff. I kind of knew that. Maybe I shouldn't have gone there.

To me, it makes sense. I think it all depends on perspective. I mean, they're still considerably more fragile than a human. How far do we have to go to get that point across. They're not jus AV8 - they're AV8 + stunty.

I also think that it is not weird, that they could be more tough than a scrawny stringy gobbo. Lard might not be the mark of a great athlete, but it does offer some protection :)

Rhyoth said:
although, AV 8 Halflings is fun and does make sense, if we rename them Hobbits...
Funny you should mention that. Back in the vault discussion days, I argued passionately for replacing treemen with ogres on the halfling team. Because this is the warhammer world and not middle earth.
The reply I got was that these guys pretty much are hobbits rather than "halflings" - being friends with the Ents and all.

So, personally, I like it.
But the reaction has been quite pointed.
My real problem is: What else to do.
I want them in "tier c"/bottom of tier 1.
How the heck should they get there.
I'd rather not add "special rules"/coaching staff - that's just so clunky!
And a new position player would probably also be a turnoff for many leagues.

Suggestions?

Cheers
Martin

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:31 am
by plasmoid
Dwarfs (and tier 0 teams)
Mattgslater said:
1) Nerfs lead to bad blood even when they work, but buffs only cause problems when they go too far.
I see it differently:
Buff everything for tier 0, and something will overshoot, breaking the game.
On the other hand, it will take a massive nerf to take any of the top dogs out of tier 1. So as long as they're in tier 1 - I really don't care much about top, middle or bottom. No team deserves to be in the absolute top of tier 1. I wouldn't lose any sleep if dwarfs or wood elfs dropped to [shudder :wink:] 50%.

When the LRB5 nerfs got introduced there was plenty of whining and gnashing of teeth, but all the nerfed teams are still very competitive.

The other thing I'd like to reply to - and you're probably right about it, but it still irks me - is the very concept that a nerf should/could cause bad blood.
I approach this as a league commish.
I do not love any team, nor do I hate any team.
But I love a close game, and I hate a lopsided league.

And I think it might cloud a persons judgement if he truly loves and identifies strongly with one team of the 24(+) teams. IMO, if you looove the very thought of coaching undeads, you could love them while winning slightly less.

I can't help but notice that so far the 2 staunch defenders of dwarfs here have had dwarfs as their avatars. Coincidence? :wink:
Both have certainly defended dwarf power passionately in the past.

I really, really, can't see, that this would be a crushing blow to the dwarf side.
They've still got lots of neat advantages.
They just might have to adjust their playing style a tiny bit.
And heck, maybe a few dwarf linemen could take block as their first or second skill (after guard) - just like most other linemen in the friggin game :o

Cheers
Martin

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:43 am
by plasmoid
Bits and bobs: Rhyoth
Finally, a few specific replies:
1) Any team using Necromancy / Mind control / Slavery should NOT have a Reroll under 70.000 GP
IMO, this is a bit too arbitrary of a design rule to trump the balance.
When chaos rerolls were reduced by 10K, something similar was said, but it has worked out fine.
2) Your Undead ghouls are different from Necromantic's : one should be renamed
Agreed. I'll change the undead one, so necros remain untouched.
And I could have given them undead ghoul regen for 90K. Then he would be more like a wight runner. But I'd prefer a small a change as possible. I think the blodger access is what makes the team so potent at short leagues and tournaments. But fend is not a bad skill. And it complements block and dodge at 16 SPP very well :D
5) AV 9 Elves ???
See the other thread...
4) Why did you limit Goblins to 0-2 : having 0-4 gobos is much more fun, and it's far from being overpowered...
True. But given just how few orc coaches would use more than 2 anyway, I decided to go with aesthetics here. It cuts them down to 11 positionals like the human team, and they're pushing the envelope.
3) Regarding Dwarves and their Blockers
3.1) I don't see any reason to rename them (as long as they still have Tackle)
3.2) Wrestle just doesn't fit Dwarves (those little guys know how to stay on their feet )
3.3) what about Juggernaut instead of Block for Trollslayers ?
3.1) Agreed. It's a personal preference. All teams should have a lineman, IMO.
3.2) Those little guys also go for the knees and are eager to bring down their opponent. Admittedly, the choice was not based on fluff. But I don't consider it un-fluffy.
3.3) Could have, but I wanted something a little more potent (though It would probably have sparked the same response)

Cheers :D
Martin

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:53 am
by plasmoid
Finally
Bits and bobs: Mattgslater
I've replied to some of these elsewhere, so I'll just stick to the remaining points:
4) Your "tyranny of the masses" strategy seems to be working okay. The conversation has been intense and most of your finalist answers seem to have been fun.
That's how this started. But I've added a bit of playtest and a bit of executive decision to the mix :)
6) Seeing the nerf on Dwarfs, I'd immediately move into an Elves Only mode in an effort to convince the commissioner to change it. Dwarfs are the immune system of BB; tweak them at your peril.
This one I strongly disagree with.
If that were true, I think it would be massively poor design.
In reality there are so many small to medium sized leagues out there without a dwarf team in them. And the game is not broken without them. I haven't seen elfs ruling any and all dwarf-less leagues.
7) Seeing the nerf on Orcs, I'd decide that this meant I'm not to play them, and I'd be very dismayed. I don't think it'll have any meaningful effect on the team's power level (Gobs, Linos and Throwers are all flavor pieces) but it does mean that there's no longer a bashy passing team.
If I were your commish, I wouldn't be too bothered if this turned you off orcs.
I'm sure there'd be plenty of other coaches digging their sheer muscle (with a smattering of gobbo mobility).
Maybe it wouldn't do much long term, where many orc coaches go without the throwers anyway.
But in short term and tournaments, the thrower is useful.

And nothing sucks more than managing against the odds to break down an orc cage, only too see them pull a reasonably probably passing play out of their green *ss :orc:

As for no passing bash team, pact is bash with P access.
And hey - dwarf runners have sure hands and access to P. They're 1 skill behind a human thrower, and unlike khemri they have 3 reliable recievers. They're just so good that nobody can be bothered to go there.

Cheers
Martin :D

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:53 am
by plasmoid
PS - I hope this wall of text didn't kill the conversation :oops: :wink:

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:51 am
by Patchwork
plasmoid wrote:I can't help but notice that so far the 2 staunch defenders of dwarfs here have had dwarfs as their avatars. Coincidence? :wink:
Both have certainly defended dwarf power passionately in the past.

I really, really, can't see, that this would be a crushing blow to the dwarf side.
They've still got lots of neat advantages.
They just might have to adjust their playing style a tiny bit.
And heck, maybe a few dwarf linemen could take block as their first or second skill (after guard) - just like most other linemen in the friggin game :o
I'll start by saying I do have a dwarven team but they aren't my favorite. I'd have picked orcs for my break from av 7, if there weren't already so many teams of them being used in the league at the time.

That out of the way, I don't care for the dwarf linemen getting wrestle either. It's a terrible skill for players with 4 mv. I do understand why you want to Nerf dwarves but I prefered juggernauth on the Troll Slayers instead of block. Still a good skill to have, one I like on the Troll Slayers as well but it's not as good when you're getting blocked, which suits the Troll Slayers and it puts off Troll Slayer developement a bit, as block is likely to be the first skill. I admit it's not much of a nerf by itself though.


plasmoid wrote:The other thing I'd like to reply to - and you're probably right about it, but it still irks me - is the very concept that a nerf should/could cause bad blood.
I approach this as a league commish.
I do not love any team, nor do I hate any team.
But I love a close game, and I hate a lopsided league.
I agree with you that it shouldn't cause bad blood but from when I used to play MMOs, it really does for some people and I'm sure the developers on those games weren't just picking on classes either. Still the keyword is 'some' and an online Blood Bowl league is very different from an MMO.

Re: 1 Tier Blood Bowl

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:19 pm
by mattgslater
What I'm saying is that "fun" trumps "balanced" anyday. Nerfs introduced into existing structures are not fun. Nobody likes to be nerfed. Even if they totally understand where you're coming from, some part of them will take it personally and you will encounter hostility.

I totally understand that balancing down is easier than balancing up, because there's a ceiling you can't go over, but the floor is pretty forgiving. I see that, and I'm telling you it's not worth it anyway.

Oh, and about Dwarfs:

1) Wrestle is a Dwarf-tax, with very little added value. I'd see Wrestle on a both-down with MA4 as a fail. A skill that says "some fails aren't turnovers" is not a skill you want. Dwarf positionals already pay a steep tax. A Dwarf Runner is a Human Thrower (good bargain) with a lost skill (ouch) and +10k price (ouch again). A Dwarf Blitzer is an Orc Blitzer who trades an MA for Thick Skull. That sucks, man. Why play a team that sells out for lino value, after the linos are nerfed.

2) It's not fluffy at all. Dwarfs are really short, so they're good at getting in underneath somebody and exploding up into the chest or head, or at spearing your thigh/knee/shin/groin. They're also very hard to get under and stand up. That's called the Block skill. Also, Dwarfs have really short arms and poor reach. They would be the worst wrestlers....

3) I'm not a Dwarf coach. I have a Dwarf team (the Full-o-Selfia Egos), but I don't like how they play, so I just make sure to keep it on hand for somebody else. I'm firmly of the opinion that a balance of 10-20% Dwarf teams is very good for the health of a league, especially if the team to beat is dodgy. If you call that a bad thing, I shrug and say "it is what it is."