Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by Bludbowler »

Stalling simply provides an opportunity for the other side to knock players down and foul the living daylights out of them.
:)

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by just1234person »

While I can understand the frustration with stalling teams and tactics, any sort of rule that forces teams to not stall is a huge penalty to teams that cannot handle the ball effectively and must stall to control counterattack touchdowns. Bascially, you're saying if you play Khemri, Nurgle, Chaos, etc., you are going to be forced to try to play all out scoring matches versus Elves and Skaven which they will win the vast majority of the time.

For a team that takes 4-5 turns to score, being forced to give up the ball with 4 turns left to a fast agility team that can score in two turns every time is essentially nerfing those teams. They'll be forced to try and re-score that half with 2 turns on a team that can't effectively play that fast, and essentially it's forcing everyone to try and play Elfball.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by JPS »

Bludbowler wrote:Stalling simply provides an opportunity for the other side to knock players down and foul the living daylights out of them.
:)
Agreed. The rule was specifically targeted to benefit new coaches who hadn't figured this out yet. We run two leagues and the rule only applies in the "rookie" league and not the "pro" league.
just1234person wrote:any sort of rule that forces teams to not stall is a huge penalty to teams that cannot handle the ball effectively and must stall to control counterattack touchdowns.
Also agreed. But, keep in mind the rule has two parts:
1) The ball carrier must start the turn able to score without making a die roll. If the ball carrier has MA 6, set him up 7 squares away from the end zone and stall from there until Turn 7. On Turn 7 move him one or two squares closer to the end zone. So what if your opponent calls Showboating on Turn 8, you were going to score anyway.
2) If the ball carrier meets the conditions in Part 1, then the opposing coach has to see it and call it (like moving the turn marker) AND make a low percentage dice roll (1 in 6 the first turn, 2 in 6 the second consecutive turn, etc.).

So while it does nerf the bashy teams, it proves to be only a small nerf in practice.

Ultimately, it is a good house rule for leagues where a lot of coaches complain about stalling as a tactic. The actual gameplay changes only a little while the perception changes a lot.

- Jason

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by dode74 »

So while it does nerf the bashy teams, it proves to be only a small nerf in practice.
I disagree. Stalling a square from the endzone is easier as you don't have to bash through defenders again. If you have to stall 7 squares away then that's plenty of space and time for a team to set up a defence. The whole point of stalling is to remove the space to defend and take away the time for a counterattack.

Of course, as a house rule in a league where everyone complains about stalling then it may be viable.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by just1234person »

dode74 wrote:I disagree. Stalling a square from the endzone is easier as you don't have to bash through defenders again. If you have to stall 7 squares away then that's plenty of space and time for a team to set up a defence. The whole point of stalling is to remove the space to defend and take away the time for a counterattack.

Of course, as a house rule in a league where everyone complains about stalling then it may be viable.
Yeah, I wouldn't ever stall 7 squares away from the endzone when the defender can setup a double line defense screen that makes it impossible to score reliably on turn 8.

I can understand though for House rules putting in something like this that simply to 'appease the audience'. Blood Bowl is all about fun, and while this might be a failure in tactics for tier 1 Blood Bowl, it might help keep the 'fun' factor in a just for fun league. I wouldn't want that rule in place, as I often stall (if I can) even with non-bashy teams to control the clock, but if I were playing among friends and those were the rules, I wouldn't mind too much as it keeps the pace moving.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by Krulfang »

I don't like it. Even for rookies, it's just giving them a idea that scoring is te only way to play BB, which it really isn't. It's not teaching the rookies how to handle the different situations that they will have to face on the pitch. When they step up to the experienced bracket, they'll just have more to learn. The learning should get done in the rookie leagues, and the finesse is acquired in the advanced leagues.

Also, attrition/bashy teams (which often stall) will try to throw blocks those turns up until they score for extra pain, especially if they've saved rerolls for this occasion or have someone ready to push out of bounds. Now, somebody calls showboating and potentially 10 pieces are denied the chance to act from the positioning the coach just fought to get them to, and they are denied any planned follow throughs. That poor bash-loving coach is missing out on potential SPPs, the true rewards of their delaying strategy being pulled off, and the reason they chose that team in the first place.

So, in addition to points already raised, I think it's in the end a disservice to the rookies. It serves to combat an element of the game they need to learn how to utilize and counter.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by JaM »

I think the biggest problem here is/was, letting someone play a team with TR 175 or so, in a league full of new coaches with new teams.
But that seems to be fixed now.

As for stalling: it's a legitimate tactic, just like "camping" in FPS. It works, and sometimes it's neccesary. But done at the wrong time and wrong place it can really kill the fun in the game.
Preventing stalling is something you can/should learn but being men down and being outscored/bashed, coupled with a stalling opponent is just one of those games you dont want to have too often.

Just all MHO of course...

If you want to houserule it, this rule might be a good idea. But better would be showing hoe to prevent it, and making sure everyone has a "good" (as in fun, enjoyable) game.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by JPS »

*** SHOWBOATING FOLLOW UP ***

Due to changes in the league's dynamics, we are moving from a two-league format with a "Pro" league (no Showboating rule) and an "Amateur" league (Showboating could be called) to a single league where coaches can run multiple teams. The league will no longer have a fixed schedule format. This will hopefully allow for coaches to play more evenly matched games, largely eliminating the worst of the completely devestating games. Several coaches have also developed reliable one-turn scorers on Skaven teams which has shown the other end of the speed vs bash spectrum.

The Showboating rule will be dropped.

That being said, the rule itself ultimately received positive feedback, especially as it was geared toward limiting discouragement among coaches new to the game.

In terms of tactics, coaches generally chose one of three responses to the possibility of their opponent calling Showboating: a) score right away; b) normal stalling and take the chance the opponent gets lucky, and; c) stall further away. Choices a and b were selected most often.

Coaches choosing to score right away did not typically use stalling tactics even without the rule, so it is hard to say that the rule had any effect.

Coaches who used stalling tactics as normal were forced to score earlier than they would have wished only a few times, and even then only by a turn earlier than they had wanted. This did result in multiple games ending with an opportunity for the opponent to take some high risk plays to try to score in response, all but one of which failed. This made for exciting finishes with minimal changes in results -- still only one game went from a Win/Loss to a Draw due to the Showboating rule.

The Coach of the Norse team that was most notorious for stalling chose option c, changing his tactics to stall one GFI away from the end zone. This did allow his opponents to do more to defend against him than before and he did have to work a lot harder to score on Turn 7/8 than before. But, here again, the end results of the games were the same, just more exciting in getting there.

In summary, it was a good rule for our league for the time we used it. It effectively added interest and excitement to games that might have been one-sided bash-fests late in the game without substantially changing the outcomes of the individual games.

If our league ever gets to a point where we can find/develop custom stadium rules that are fun, effective and not too unbalanced, I may reintroduce the Showboating rule as the effect of building giant-screen TV's in the stadium. The player is too busy watching himself on the big-screen to pay attention to his coach yelling at him to slow down! The stadium owner chooses whether or not to build the tv's for a price, so it isn't a league-wide effect, just in some stadiums. But that's for another day - and another thread....

- JPS

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by JaM »

Good to see you guys liked it, and good to see that you have a "pro" and an amateur league now. :D

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by JPS »

JaM wrote:Good to see you guys liked it, and good to see that you have a "pro" and an amateur league now. :D
Actually, we had a Pro and Amateur league and the Showboating rule applied only to the amateur league. Unfortunately, the fixed schedule aspect of the Pro league and coaches dropping out because of real life priorities has become a problem. We're likely going to go to an open schedule with a single league where coaches can run multiple teams. If this is the case, we will drop the Showboating rule as it was only ever intended for the "amateurs."

It served its purpose while it lasted, but it's time to move on. And, like I said, it could work for a "Big Screen" stadium enhancement if stadium rules are used - but my league is not ready for that.

- JPS

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by Smurf »

The simple way of getting newbies not slaughtered is for the experienced coaches to go easy on them. Or play a few practice runs a with the experienced coach giving out tips and demonstrating moves.

There are a handful of good players in our league and we enjoy raising the bar. Easy wins against new coaches is nothing to be proud of.

Good sportmanship is required here, not rules and if the players are so myopic then the new coaches need to leave. Remember the game is about fun.

Last Sunday, as I'm at the top of our league with WE, another coach who is not so 'quick' (I've learned that he has a form of dyslexia) took his Chaos dwarves out against my humans. He had the TV advantage and I had the inducements, fairly confident I set about trying to win. He was steadfast in his play, very confident in his team's abilities and so we ended with a 2-1 grind to him. It was enjoyable because it was a Coach from the bottom of the league beating a Coach at the top of the league.

All the coaches, at the club, know that a game against me is going to be tough and fair. For newbies I try to teach them the basics quickly, a few tips and tricks and tell them the rest is up to them.

Being humbled is nice because it's your turn to learn something. Winning all the time means you ought to find better players or play a different team.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by just1234person »

JPS wrote:*** SHOWBOATING FOLLOW UP ***

Due to changes in the league's dynamics, we are moving from a two-league format with a "Pro" league (no Showboating rule) and an "Amateur" league (Showboating could be called) to a single league where coaches can run multiple teams. The league will no longer have a fixed schedule format. This will hopefully allow for coaches to play more evenly matched games, largely eliminating the worst of the completely devestating games. Several coaches have also developed reliable one-turn scorers on Skaven teams which has shown the other end of the speed vs bash spectrum.

The Showboating rule will be dropped.

That being said, the rule itself ultimately received positive feedback, especially as it was geared toward limiting discouragement among coaches new to the game.

In terms of tactics, coaches generally chose one of three responses to the possibility of their opponent calling Showboating: a) score right away; b) normal stalling and take the chance the opponent gets lucky, and; c) stall further away. Choices a and b were selected most often.

Coaches choosing to score right away did not typically use stalling tactics even without the rule, so it is hard to say that the rule had any effect.

Coaches who used stalling tactics as normal were forced to score earlier than they would have wished only a few times, and even then only by a turn earlier than they had wanted. This did result in multiple games ending with an opportunity for the opponent to take some high risk plays to try to score in response, all but one of which failed. This made for exciting finishes with minimal changes in results -- still only one game went from a Win/Loss to a Draw due to the Showboating rule.

The Coach of the Norse team that was most notorious for stalling chose option c, changing his tactics to stall one GFI away from the end zone. This did allow his opponents to do more to defend against him than before and he did have to work a lot harder to score on Turn 7/8 than before. But, here again, the end results of the games were the same, just more exciting in getting there.

In summary, it was a good rule for our league for the time we used it. It effectively added interest and excitement to games that might have been one-sided bash-fests late in the game without substantially changing the outcomes of the individual games.

If our league ever gets to a point where we can find/develop custom stadium rules that are fun, effective and not too unbalanced, I may reintroduce the Showboating rule as the effect of building giant-screen TV's in the stadium. The player is too busy watching himself on the big-screen to pay attention to his coach yelling at him to slow down! The stadium owner chooses whether or not to build the tv's for a price, so it isn't a league-wide effect, just in some stadiums. But that's for another day - and another thread....

- JPS
Nice! Great to hear those results. I like the idea of that rule for an 'amateur' league, keeping things from being demoralizing to new coaches.

I like that the Norse coach chose to try and stall anyway one GFI away from the end zone, must have made for some exciting last plays, as you mentioned.

As long as everyone understands that the bigger picture includes stalling, I don't see anything wrong with using that rule as you did. Cheers on the report.

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Re: Showboating - an effort to combat stalling

Post by mattgslater »

Oooh... this just came to me.

If you hold the ball at the beginning of the turn within scoring range (assuming no dodges or GFIs), then at the end of the turn, if you haven't scored, your opponent may call you for "showboating." For each time you get called for showboating, subtract 1 from your Fan Factor roll at the end of the match.

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