Fixing ClawPOMB without hurting ClawMB or POMB

[Darkson]

But the whole combo, expressed on multiple players, is problematic.

No, whining coaches that don't like their players getting hurt are problematic...

[DoubleSkulls]

Well put, Anglakhel. I also think that the break-even point for SE might be a tad high, but I'd rather see the effect of the bank rules first.

I agree with all of this. Spiralling expenses was developed in parallel to the bank, which was pulled at the last minute without tweaking Spiralling Expenses to match - so spiralling expenses expected only the first 100k of cash not to count. I know all my cyanide bash teams end up with tons of cash that I generally end up spending on inducements whenever I'm an underdog.

[garion]

I think bash teams without claw need to develop specifically to counter it. Dodge is good in this regard since many Claw teams are light on tackle with the Clawpombers - however that generally means you need a policy of using all your doubles on Dodge to make it worthwhile. Fend is also good, but a lot of those players you really want stand firm for other opponents and it can be difficult to justify them both.

Like I said, I don't think ClawMB is the problem, necessarily. And I don't think POMB is the problem. It's ClawPOMB. Vs. AV9, POMB doesn't beat Stand Firm (that is, PO vs AV9 = not so hot). ClawMB without PO is nasty, but it's a nice balance element to keep the Orcs from dominating. But the whole combo, expressed on multiple players, is problematic.

PO is the problem, end of. You are right that MB PO doesn't stack very well versus Av9. That is because it is still very unlikley that you are going to break their armour. However MB PO is incredibly powerful against Av7 teams and Av8 teams. Purely because re-rolling injury is just too powerful.

I don't think the problem is just Av9 teams getting smacked about by the combo. The problem is every team gets destroyed by the combo with little to no tactical/positional play. While some teams can still win these matches with aggressive ball sacking tactics (all the elves, Skaven and Slann) other just cant take this approach.

Darkson I think that comment is a little tired now, personally I couldn't care less if any of my players die. Infact just the other day I let my opponent get a free blitz on an ag5 Wardancer just so i could guarentee I scored, he got -Av, who cares I won . The problem is these games are devoid of any tactical merrit from the CPOMB coach they just smash everything and reduce you in numbers so quickly that you cannot compete again till the second half which makes games very boring and thoughtless and as long as they are sensible to set up a solid cage where no 1 dice blitz on the ball carrier is at all possible there is nothing you can do.

MB was always a good enough weapon to reduce opponent's numbers to very few once your team has it on 5 or 6 players. This would often clear the pitch against av7 and 8 teams and allowing PO to re-roll injury against these races is just stupid. Now claw is a perfectly good piece of game design for stopping the AV9 teams growing into unstoppable powerhouses and the nerf to the apo is a good way of making up for the removal of ageing. But the Nerf to fouling has removed every teams ability to hurt players efectivels except for teams that can spam CPOMB. All the weapons are in a few teams hands now. Its just a shame that this rule set feels like even fewer races that in LRB4 are in the top tier/elite team bracket in the perpetual environment.

[Dzerards]

All Claw/Piling Yawn/MB does is spread the Piling Yawn cheese further up the AV tree.

I concur with everything garion stated above, especially:

The problem is every team gets destroyed by the combo with little to no tactical/positional play.

It used to be that being a good BB player was all about positioning, tactical play, and good risk management. In my eyes at least. Now what's required to win is Piling Yawn with no tactical consideration at all. And to me that strips the fun, and the challenge, out of the game.

And to say it's just whining about your players getting hurt is a bit trite. I've been running Underworld of late. I'm not some Orc or Dwarf coach crying cause I had to use the apothecary for the first time ever.

Claw is good game design, like tackle it does a job but is wasted TV against the wrong sort of team. Might Blow is fine. But Piling Yawn tips a balance. We can all see it. Those that spam it rather than improve their game and those, like myself, who complain about it cause they don't want to have resort to it.

And saying 'take Fend' is not quite the same as taking Tackle to counter spammed Dodge. For one, Tackle is a pro-active skill. Having 2-3 Tackle players can counter mass Dodge in a way having 2-3 Fend players can't against mass PY.

It reminds me a lot of fouling. In the old days fouling was something you did nearly very turn. Now it's become tactical. Only crazy people (and stunty coaches) foul every turn. You weight up the odds: risk versus reward. The risk/reward for Piling Yawn is a joke. The penalties should be the same. Piling on to a player on the ground is the same as kicking a player on the ground, you roll doubles on armour or injury after Piling Yawn is used; sent off!

[mattgslater]

Piling on to a player on the ground is the same as kicking a player on the ground, you roll doubles on armour or injury after Piling Yawn is used; sent off!

Oooh. If the re-roll is a double (not the injury if you used it on AV), you're sent off.

[garion]

Piling on to a player on the ground is the same as kicking a player on the ground, you roll doubles on armour or injury after Piling Yawn is used; sent off!

Oooh. If the re-roll is a double (not the injury if you used it on AV), you're sent off.

Its been raised many times before. Galak really doesn't like it.

I'm not fond of it either tbh. But for somereason the fix that seems to be eluding everyone is - PO can only be used to re-roll av. It is how it worked in LRB4 and LRB4 bash was perfectly good and plentiful. the only downside I found with LRB4 was the dominance of Orcs, but that has already been addressed by making claw so widespread. I also didnt like ageing but at the same time I understood why it was there.

Maybe a good idea would be to bring back a similar mechanism to ageing, only not so evil. Make it so once a player reaches their 5th skill they gain Decay (call it something else though, like ageing). Then there wouldnt be the need for Hyperbash. Teams would be built by skilling the players up evenly instead of 4 legends and the rest rookies, and it would add some extra strategy to team management.

[plasmoid]

If you wanted to go that way, a PiOn guy could just get 'cautioned' - i.e. sent off to the reserves box.
But it just seems so heavy handed.
I'd rather make it less effective.

[legowarrior]

Add a penalty to the roll of pile on?

[Oxynot]

Since we are tossing ideas around: a reroll with Piling On is a double results in a turnover. Fluffing it to the piler on hurting him/her/itself.

Then at least you'd have to think when to use the skill (is the opposing player important enough to risk it).

edit: it would probably amount to reducing the umber of said skill per team and limit its use to end of turn actions, i.e. to unimportant section. There must be a major flaw somewhere in my logic, someone more astute please point it out

[Steam Ball]

Wild idea: if you roll a double... you have to roll Armour (+ Injury, obviously), because you were so daft you landed poorly and maybe hurt yourself too. Maybe even if you pass Armour, you are still Stunned, because the hit was really strong.

At least it would be the source of great memories: ST4 guy dies after jumping on poor halfling that just got knocked down.

[mattgslater]

Wild idea: if you roll a double... you have to roll Armour (+ Injury, obviously), because you were so daft you landed poorly and maybe hurt yourself too. Maybe even if you pass Armour, you are still Stunned, because the hit was really strong.

At least it would be the source of great memories: ST4 guy dies after jumping on poor halfling that just got knocked down.

Ooh. Roll before you put your guy down. If you roll a double, you get knocked down. If not, you get placed prone. As always, being placed prone only results in a turnover if a player on the moving team drops the ball, but being knocked down always ends your turn.

[plasmoid]

I like Oxynots the best.
Mind you, it's the best of several suggestions I don't really like at all

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubleskulls and Dode74,

I also think that the break-even point for SE might be a tad high, but I'd rather see the effect of the bank rules first.

Me too.
You both know Galak has posted his 'what-if' list.
I've got one too.
Big thing on it is to bring down the break-even point about 30 points.
I'd do that by
a) Add +10K for the 3rd skill and +20K for the 5th skill. (Or maybe just +10K for every skill after the 2nd?)
AND
b) Change the standard SE steps to: starts at 180, and steps of 10. (Rather than 175/15)

Cheers
Martin

[DoubleSkulls]

SE was set before the bank was pulled. So I agree that it needs to be toughened up. I don't think we need to adjust the TV costs of skills though.

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubleskulls,
IMO, if skill cost isn't adjusted, SE would just have to be pulled harder.

In my experience, once individual players start to combo-up, they get better than their price-tag.
I've also seen this with minmaxed teams on both Cyanide and FUMBBL, as well as some tabletop teams who have happened to take a beating and have dipped from glory to 11 starters with a few awesome players (I could link to one on MBBL right now).

I think no harm is done in making the TV system that bit more precise. Especially because it is something that would have to be dealt with anyway (in a perfect world or house rule stting, naturally).

Cheers
Martin