An alternative human team with all positions

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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Shteve0
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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

0-16 lineman 6338 none G 50k
0-2 blocker 5329 block, dauntless GS 80k
0-4 blitzer 7338 block GS 80k
0-2 thrower 6338 pass, sure hands GP 70k
0-2 runner 7337 catch, sure feet GA 80k
0-1 ogre

How would you like something more like this? Or is that too much S access?

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Iranian Spy »

Lamanzer wrote:Humans are weak because they cannot open gap to attack or defend.

To be more interresting they need St4 players.
So, drop 2 catchers to add 2 blockers

0-2 Blocker 4 4 2 9 GS /AP (like Black Orcs)

If somebody think it's too much, drop ogre or 2 Blitzers.
In total agreement here. I think they would jump up to tier 1 with this addition without being too powerful - but if so, the Ogre could go.

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An alternative human team with all positions

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Iranian Spy wrote:
Lamanzer wrote:Humans are weak because they cannot open gap to attack or defend.

To be more interresting they need St4 players.
So, drop 2 catchers to add 2 blockers

0-2 Blocker 4 4 2 9 GS /AP (like Black Orcs)

If somebody think it's too much, drop ogre or 2 Blitzers.
In total agreement here. I think they would jump up to tier 1 with this addition without being too powerful - but if so, the Ogre could go.
Sorry, I'm in total disagreement. Humans should no more get ST4 players than they should get AG4 players. Are dwarves weak because they don't have ST4 players? No, a lot of people consider them top tier but they're slow, low AG, and low ST.

I don't buy into vanilla-ising (not to be confused with "vanilla icing") of teams. Not all races should be the same, or the same power at all TVs. A few could use tweaks, but the challenge in the design is to keep the charachter of the roster intact... Adding AG4 or ST4 pieces (or stunties or whatever), for me, should not even be on the table.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Iranian Spy »

I agree with you on the vanilla-ising point but as the vanilla team that can and should be able to do anything, I think humans can justify it, particularly if it makes them as strong as their fluff suggests.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by fitch-face »

Iranian Spy wrote:I agree with you on the vanilla-ising point but as the vanilla team that can and should be able to do anything...
I always thought the point of humans was that they could develop in any direction. Not that they should be able to do everything all at once. I think it's silly to make humans more bashy with ST4 players just for the sake of it. It's your job as a coach to make them more bashy as you develop if that's what you want to do.

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An alternative human team with all positions

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What fitch face said, 100%

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Iranian Spy »

I wouldn't say for the sake of it: it was pointed out above that they have trouble making gaps. They are also a tier 1.5/2 team which doesn't fit their fluff and all of their positions are fairly mediocre (compare the blitzer to the orc blitzers cost and high AV). This lowers the potential of their team.

Regarding putting the onus on the coach to make a team more bashy, the only real way I can see this being done is spamming Guard on your Blitzers and hoping for doubles and ST increases, which doesn't bring them into line with other starting top-tier teams or even marginally toe-to-toe with bashers like Orcs, Chaos or Dwarves. For humans developing in any direction, I don't really think they can truly develop into an honest to goodness bash team without rolling ST increases or doubles for guard linemen on mass.

With 2 ST 4 blockers, you could focus on the bash with them and 4 blitzers having S stat increases to spam guard. Similarly you could push them as a sketchy passing team as they are just now or with suggested changes above or use a running game similar to that of Necro with the speed that they have. With the addition of the ST 4 blockers you have a true vanilla team that can develop any way they like.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by dode74 »

On what basis do you say they are tier 1.5/2? All the data I have seen suggests they are within tier 1, albeit at the lower end.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Iranian Spy »

The bottom end of 1 is 1.5. On what basis do you suggest they are in the same tier/level as Wood Elves, Skaven, Dwarves, Undead et al?

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by MattDakka »

Iranian Spy wrote:I wouldn't say for the sake of it: it was pointed out above that they have trouble making gaps. They are also a tier 1.5/2 team which doesn't fit their fluff and all of their positions are fairly mediocre (compare the blitzer to the orc blitzers cost and high AV). This lowers the potential of their team.

Regarding putting the onus on the coach to make a team more bashy, the only real way I can see this being done is spamming Guard on your Blitzers and hoping for doubles and ST increases, which doesn't bring them into line with other starting top-tier teams or even marginally toe-to-toe with bashers like Orcs, Chaos or Dwarves. For humans developing in any direction, I don't really think they can truly develop into an honest to goodness bash team without rolling ST increases or doubles for guard linemen on mass.

With 2 ST 4 blockers, you could focus on the bash with them and 4 blitzers having S stat increases to spam guard. Similarly you could push them as a sketchy passing team as they are just now or with suggested changes above or use a running game similar to that of Necro with the speed that they have. With the addition of the ST 4 blockers you have a true vanilla team that can develop any way they like.
+1, spot on, you wrote the same things I think.
The problem with Blitzers is that they need Mighty Blow, Piling On, Tackle to dish out a bit of damage, and at the same time they have to take Guard to support their team mates and they are overpriced.
The Thrower is not a real thrower with mediocre AG 3, he's slow to be a runner, and the Catcher could be better (+1 AV or ST) or cheaper.
Probably the best use for a Catcher is as runner, with Block and Sure Hands, the rest of the team playing a running game.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

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Iranian Spy wrote:The bottom end of 1 is 1.5. On what basis do you suggest they are in the same tier/level as Wood Elves, Skaven, Dwarves, Undead et al?
Stats taken from several thousand online games both in TV matched and scheduled league environments put them at the low end of tier1, which is defined as 45-55%; WE, skaven dwarves and UD also fit into that bracket. Humans also fit in the tier 1.5 bracket (40-50%), as do many other teams, but they are certainly above tier 2 (35-45%).

Seems to me that you want them to be in the top end of tier 1.

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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

AG3 is actually OK, if you can augment with a couple of skills. Ma7 and 8 is pretty good (too good, I think), and you have S access on 4 players, which is excellent.

If orcs, dwarfs, elves etc are St3, humans should be St3. St4 would push them over the top. They're not supposed to be able to pull off passing plays as well as elves, or grind as well as the bash teams - they're supposed to react to the opposition's game plan. How you develop them is entirely up to you, but surely the case for starting cookie cutter X33X should be unimpeachable?

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

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dode74 wrote:Seems to me that you want them to be in the top end of tier 1.
I certainly do! (Though not with ST4/AG4 as base stats.)

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by spubbbba »

dode74 wrote:
Iranian Spy wrote:The bottom end of 1 is 1.5. On what basis do you suggest they are in the same tier/level as Wood Elves, Skaven, Dwarves, Undead et al?
Stats taken from several thousand online games both in TV matched and scheduled league environments put them at the low end of tier1, which is defined as 45-55%; WE, skaven dwarves and UD also fit into that bracket. Humans also fit in the tier 1.5 bracket (40-50%), as do many other teams, but they are certainly above tier 2 (35-45%).

Seems to me that you want them to be in the top end of tier 1.
Yeah but the Bloodbowl tiers are pretty stupid. If you asked someone outside of BB how they’d imagine 21 teams would be split into 3 tiers they’d assume each would have around 7 members.

Instead we have:
Tier 3 – Goblins, Halflings and Ogres
Tier 2 – Vampires
Tier 1 – Everyone else

The 3 NAF approved teams are supposed to be tier 1.5 I believe but they are all very different and new so it is hard to say how accurate that is so I will ignore them.

It seems utter pointless to have 17 teams in 1 tier and the other 2 have 1 and 3 teams in it. They should really have put all the joke teams in tier 3 and then split up tier 1 between strong team (Orcs, Wood elves etc) and average teams (Necro, norse etc). There is a huge gap between tier 1 and 2 which mess up comparisons as weak tier 1 teams like Khemri or Humans can be said to be fine as they are still better than vamps.

I’d want humans to be in that tier 1 as they are one of the main Bloodbowl teams and have always been portrayed as one of the strongest.

At the very least Blitzers and catchers (or +AV for 70K) should get a 10K discount (and probably Ogres too) as I agree they shouldn’t have too extreme stats but could at least be cheap.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by dode74 »

Reject the metric and your argument becomes entirely subjective. The tiers are there on purpose and with intent - more challenging teams. Make more teams challenging reduces the number of truly competitive teams, reducing variation even further (as people will tend to choose the teams seen as "better").

Humans are in tier 1. You don't like the definition of tier 1.

I'm all for a minor buff to humans, with that said. So long as the team is still in tier 1 afterwards then all is good. What we will get, though, is "balance creep". Khemri or Norse or someone will be next, with players demanding buffs for them as they are the weakest T1 team. That's not a reason to not buff humans, btw, just an observation.

What I would do is make catchers 0-2 8247 Catch GA (at the appropriate cost - I forget what it is now). Mini-GRs backed up with a bit more strength would make them "bashy skaven". I'd probably reduce the cost of the blitzer by 10k too to bring it in line with the Orc. Playtesting pending, ofc ;)

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