An alternative human team with all positions

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Iranian Spy
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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Iranian Spy »

I do indeed think Humans should be in the top 5 if not 8 teams. Not because I play humans or have a bias towards them (I like fast teams) but because Humans are the poster boy Blood Bowl team - the race that people who got into the game for the American Football side of things want to play because they resemble American football more, the team that come in the box and teach new players how to play. On that basis, they really ought to be better than a bottom tier 1/1.5 team.

Regarding the tiers; However you choose to define it, Humans are no where nearly as competitive as the top 5 maybe not even the top 8 and barely the top 10. Tier 1.5 is the bottom end of tier 1 - this distinction is made becaue tier 1, as stated above, is far too broad.

I don't think they need plus AG to be good (with a couple of normal skills you have a decent passing game - Accurate, Safe Throw and Diving Catch for the bonus to catch) but some more ST access is definitely key to giving them a chance to stand up to bashier types who can generally just put tackle zones on them and throw 2 die blocks all day while the human front line crumbles.

You mentioned balance creep - it's not a term I'm familliar with. I've heard of power creep - like in 40k where a new army gets star treatment and is generally better than the last armies so that they sell more. Balance, for the most part, sounds like a good thing, creep or otherwise - however there's nothing to suggest that Khemri or Norse need big pushes in their game plans (well, maybe Khemri but their current weak line-up was a reaction to their strength in LRB5). They aren't known for Blood Bowl in their fluff nor are they out of the box teams that new players would be best to learn the game on.

That said, naturally I feel that some teams should be better than others - stunties and vamps are fluffy and have their own intrinsic issues because it's what they are. There are known to be teams with weaknesses. Humans are not (other than they don't shine in any one regard; they should not fail bash everything but the weakest of teams) and at bottom tier 1/1.5 I feel they're being under-represented in the game as it stands.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Chris »

Yes, various people have various races they would like to see upped or decreased in power. That’s what we generally mean by balancing!

A lot want to see a boost for stunties, normally something along the lines of the right stuff negating tackle. Personally I’m not fussed, I prefer an arsenal of secret weapons!

My wish list would be

Up
Human – Boost, preferably into top 3/top 5 of teams (hence this thread and others like it)
Khemri – Boost. I like as a base giving the blitzers and throwers thick skull. I also like giving all skeletons nerves of steel. Many want changes to the tomb guardians so they lose decay, or maybe instead gain G access.
Ogre – Boost, maybe drop the cost of each Ogre by 10k. I personally like the idea of getting gnoblinars instead of snotlings.

Down
Amazons – starting game weakened, mid/late game strengthened. Few have any workable idea for how to do this.

Stay the same
Dwarf – Fine. Note some want to see the linemen lose tackle and maybe switch to the blitzers and trollslayers
Goblin – Fine. Though for clarity I would like them to have bribes on their roster and remove the special note in the inducements. Helps them in tournies that don’t allow inducements as well.
Orc – Fine, though they can have problems in late development due to losing skilled black orcs.
Chaos – Fine
Chaos Dwarf – Fine
Chaos Pact – Fine
Dark Elf – Fine
Elf – Fine
Halflings – Fine
High Elf – Fine
Lizards – Fine
Necros – Fine
Norse – Fine
Nurgle – Fine
Skaven – Fine. Though most think the Rat Ogre isn't worth it
Slann - Fine
Undead – Fine (though the skellies would get a welcomed boost if the khermi changes happened)
Underworld – Fine
Vampires – Fine (they suck)
Wood elves – Fine

And generic change – alter how claw/pile on/mighty blow works as it is currently far too much of a sure thing.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by dode74 »

Basically one issue is that you want the tiers to be narrower. There's already a set of house rules designed for that and under test now.

The other issue is that you want humans to be among the "better" races. I've got no real issue with that, as I said, so long as they remain within the tiers. NTBB does provide for a small buff for humans in the shape of an Ogre discount and a catcher AV boost.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

Most of Chris' list is dealt with in Plasmoid's house rules, but those that I don't think are dealt with sufficiently I've burped (or re-burped) up below.
Chris wrote: Up
Human – Boost, preferably into top 3/top 5 of teams (hence this thread and others like it)
0-16 Lineman 6338 G 50k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS 80k
0-2 Blocker 5339 Block, Dauntless GS 80k
0-2 Catcher 7337 Catch, Sure Feet GA 70k
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP 70k
0-1 Ogre 5529 Loner, Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, TTM 130k
Rerolls 50k

That's more S access, right there. Plus your X33X statline's intact, your catchers are quick (and now, stronger) without being silly, all players have very appropriate starting skills, there's a design theme and they're cracking out of the box.
Chris wrote:Khemri – Boost. I like as a base giving the blitzers and throwers thick skull. I also like giving all skeletons nerves of steel. Many want changes to the tomb guardians so they lose decay, or maybe instead gain G access.
0-16 Skeleton 5327 G Regeneration, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel 40k
0-2 Runner 6327 GP Sure Hands, Regeneration, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel 70k
0-2 Blitzer 6328 GS Block, Regeneration, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel 80k
0-4 Tomb Guardian 4519 S Regeneration, Thick Skull, Nerves of Steel 110k
Rerolls 70k

I'd also suggest that NoS negates Hypnogaze, just thematically. Feel free to call me a nob.
Chris wrote:Down
Amazons – starting game weakened, mid/late game strengthened. Few have any workable idea for how to do this.
0-16 Linewoman 6337 Dodge GA 50k
0-4 Catcher 8237 Catch, Dodge GA 70k
0-2 Thrower 6337 Pass, Dodge GPA 70k
0-4 Blitzer 7337 Juggernaut, Dodge GSA 80k // or // 0-4 Blitzer 7337 Tackle, Dodge GSA 90k
Rerolls 50k

Weaker (more numerous, faster) catchers, faster blitzers but without block, and A access across the board mean 'zons would have better access to the passing game, still be able to make a fist of the running game (though not as good as Humans) and can develop in a more interesting fashion in the long term. Who doesn't want Juggernaut/Frenzy/SideStep and Tackle/Diving Tackle/Stand Firm players?

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Patchwork »

Shteve0 wrote:
Chris wrote: Up
Human – Boost, preferably into top 3/top 5 of teams (hence this thread and others like it)
0-16 Lineman 6338 G 50k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS 80k
0-2 Blocker 5339 Block, Dauntless GS 80k
0-2 Catcher 7337 Catch, Sure Feet GA 70k
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP 70k
0-1 Ogre 5529 Loner, Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, TTM 130k
Rerolls 50k

That's more S access, right there. Plus your X33X statline's intact, your catchers are quick (and now, stronger) without being silly, all players have very appropriate starting skills, there's a design theme and they're cracking out of the box.
I used to be against the idea of ST 3 catchers on the human roster but I've come around on it and I like ShteveO's stat line for them there. I like the loss of dodge for sure feet. Puts off making them into blodgers by one skill and sure feet fits nicely with how other human positionals are skilled.

I'm not sure about making the catchers 0-2 and adding 0-2 blockers to make the humans more bashy though. I think I might prefer 0-4 catchers and no blockers. It gives them nearly as much agility access as strength and keeps the focus on them being a reactive roster that plays to the opponents weakness.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Chris »

I have to say I am wedded to the idea of move 8 catchers. With catch. The ghiul statline doesn't appeal because they lose that burst of speed and become a resonably fast running team.

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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

Well, for me, 833? is not a human player at all. As far as I'm concerned there are natural limits to what standard humans are capable of, and beyond that they need to supplement with skills (hence sure feet!).

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Patchwork »

Chris wrote:I have to say I am wedded to the idea of move 8 catchers. With catch. The ghiul statline doesn't appeal because they lose that burst of speed and become a resonably fast running team.
The team would lose some burst speed but would gain overall with people taking all 4 catchers being more likely then before and sure feet helping to encourage some sprinting...

...still if your married to move 8 catchers I'd go with something along the lines of the roster you have edited in the OP now. I'd swap out the surehands on the runners for sure feet though and keep them with the 7 3 3 8 stat line. Sets them apart from the throwers more, seems like a very human runner skill and gives them a little bit more burst like you were thinking off.

For the catchers. Only being 0-2 and costing 60k means the AV 7 is less of a problem then it is in the offical roster. You could make a great mobile dirty player with one at that price! If you were going to try and improve them, I'd go for the AV increase and 70k price before trying the ST increase.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by plasmoid »

OK. I've spoken out against this before, but I just can't help myself:
I just can't stomach ST3 catchers.
I agree that the human team could use a little help. I've chosen my own favourite, but that's beside the point for now.
there are a lot of things that could be done, but please don't make the team more bland!
8237 may not be an awesome statline, but at least it's interesting.
7337+whatnot has been done to death.

Here's an alternative fix:
Ogre loses loner. Team rerolls go to 40K.

(I know someone who would claim that 40K rerolls are broken. They're not. They're just broken on teams that already start out super strong (i.e. Dwarfs and Amazon)).

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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

For the record, I'm not proposing to drop the 8237 catch/dodge catcher, just to move it over to amazons (I actually really like it, I just think 7337 catch/surefeet is more appropriate to humans). If humans are supposed to be the most flexible team, I'd argue universal S3 is the way forward. Catchers need to be both good catchers and good all rounders to survive the cut into late game. Sure feet gives them a reliable burst of speed and dovetails with sure hands on the thrower. The catching specialist currently available is bobbins unless you plan to play a passing game.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by dode74 »

Catchers: 0-2 8247 Catch GA 80k.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Chris »

I don't think cheaper re-rolls give anything but a discount for the starting team.

The problem witht hat is they really suffer in the late game when expensive fragile players bite the dust.

One simple fix I have seen for the present team is just to play with cost. Make them cheaper, then at higher tv's rely on stars.

If for an example a starting side currently is (I reckognise others start with more players)
150 3xrr
140 Ogre
360 4xblitzers
070 Thrower
070 Catcher
200 4xlineman
010 1 FF

Reducing the cost of blitzers, catchers and the Ogre by 10k saves 80k. That adds a catcher and the ability to have a starting bench. Also allows a deeper bench in high tv games, something that can make up for clpomb attrition. If that is too much, increase RR to 60k and you have a net gain of 50k, or a lineman. In addition positionals are easier to replace as the league progresses.

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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

0-16 Lineman 6338 G 50k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS 80k
0-4 Catcher 7337 Catch, Sure Feet GA 70k
0-2 Thrower 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP 70k
0-1 Ogre 5529 Loner, Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, TTM 130k
Rerolls 50k

From this lineup I'd take
320 4x blitzer
210 3x catcher
140 2x thrower
130 1x ogre
100 2x lineman
100 2x reroll

That's 12 players total, has 7 fast players, 4 with block, a big guy and pickup/pass/catch/GFI rerolls aplenty. The catchers can reliably move 9 squares and do the job of blitzers if required (and vice versa) while still having a head start on hand offs. I'd suggest that's comfortably top end of T1, and has the natural skill access to compete at higher TVs. All the changes involved are price reductions to blitzers and the ogre, and the catcher change.

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Re: An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Chris »

I must confess incidentally when I dream of winning vast sums of money and buying blood bowl from GW having 3 human teams - 2nd edition with all its positions, 3rd edition with 4 blitzers and 2 str 3 catchers and 5th edition with 4 str 2 catchers!

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An alternative human team with all positions

Post by Shteve0 »

You should run an "Only Too Human" tournament, then, with various edition humans, norse, amazons and brettonian teams :P

You never know - it might even give us some data for comparing these rosters ;)

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