Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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cbbakke
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Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by cbbakke »

I wanted to get some people's thoughts on current skills. People in general hate nerfs. so instead I think a good idea can be to make the marginal skills better so more often selected.

General skill break down

Good skills
block
tackle
wrestle
frenzy
dauntless
sure hands- have often thought it belonged more in the passing skills then general.
Strip ball- i think wrestle has made this skill taken less, but I think it is still a good skill.

ok skills
kick- an ok skill but I just wish it did a little bit more in game. Maybe +1 to armor rolls on fouls. Decent skill just a little weak imo.

fend- A slight improvement of skill. Making it so when at risk of being pushed into the crowd the skill would work like side step. In effect the player would also fend off being sent into the crowd.

dirty player- I like the idea of making it +2 injury. To me I think dirty player does not mean they are sneaky or assassins. It is the guy who will take a cheap shot to take out another player.

pro- Not a bad skill, no real idea how to make it better, but it seems like it is so rarely taken. I really only see it on vampires

Poor skills
pass block- I like this skill but it is very rarely used. I think it is less used now more because of how bashing is currently running the game.

kick return- the three squares is nice but not enough to make it worth a skill choice in my opinion unless you have nothing else you want. I could see like a dwarf runner taking this if they want to avoid passing skills and don't roll doubles.

Shadowing- Can be an annoying skill but overall pretty weak and I rarely see it taken.

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koadah
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by koadah »

I'd rather keep DP at +1 and add +1 to sneaky git.

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cbbakke
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by cbbakke »

Is that with sneaky git staying in agility?

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dsavillian
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by dsavillian »

I'm going to have to disagree with kick off return being a poor skill.

In order to use it, you have to commit to building a dedicated returner (sure hands or ag4 at the very least), but since that's usually a thrower type, you aren't really wasting a positional (since your thrower likely returns the kick anyway).

I find KoR useful for 3 things (I play orcs at the moment):
- increasing the number of times I get a free catch attempt off the kick. Increasing the number of times I can roll a die to pick up the ball without risking a turnover is awesome.
- getting the ball out of my backfield as quickly as possible. KOR extends my 5MV thrower to 8, letting me cover all of the deep areas of the pitch with a single player. Otherwise, I'd have likely have to use 2 turns to recover the ball which means I'm either making a long pass to deliver the ball to the cage, going for it multiple times, or letting my opponent attack me in the back field.
- moving my thrower upfield faster if the ball is kicked shallow (or it's a touchback).


In summary, I think KoR is not a poor skill because it helps reduce the number of die rolls you have to make (go for its, catches) and helps move the ball upfield as fast as possible.

Situational, sure. But situational != poor in some cases.

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dsavillian
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by dsavillian »

also, shadowing is awesome on players with high movement. It's not taken that often because there's a huge dropoff between 8MV and 7MV and taking it on a 6MV player is hardly worth it.

Shadowing + Diving Tackle on an 8MV player is incredible IMO. Not all catchers need to be scoring machines :)

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Chris
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by Chris »

I don't see any bad skills in general that aren't worth taking. Certainly not all are like block/wrestle as you want in an ideal world everyone to have one or the other. Some like shadowing aren't for slower teams. But others are just universally essential. I am always amased to see teams without kick, I don't know who wouldn't have some benifit from it as you only need one. Kick off return is nigh compulsory for slow players like Orc throwers, espiecally in combination with the one turn goblin possibility. Fend is under-rating but I have been totally stuffed by it int he past and is an important tool for teams who don't want to bash. And Pass block is a vital counter for those passing teams where you don't have the speed/men to cover all the catchers. One pass blocker in the backfield and you have a nice large threat area.

I think general skills break down nicely into early and late development options. There are no duff choices there.

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Ulthuan_Express
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by Ulthuan_Express »

I am never without a kicking lineman if I can help it, and KOR is the rock-paper-scissors style antitode to it, as well as aiding mobility in the backfield.

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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by dode74 »

Pass block is at least as effective as a deterrent.

KOR is very nice on a slow team's ball handler.

Shadowing is undervalued, imo. On anything MA7 or above it can be a turnover creator imo. I seriously considered it as the 5th skill on my 8358 blodge guard blitzer. I took leap instead as he'll work well with the 7357 Block MB Tackle Leap witch, and SS would be more useful in combination with shadowing (so he can't simply be blitzed off).

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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by Chris »

Looking for the 4th skill on my werewolf, have block, dodge, sidestep already... can't wait for shadowing!

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cbbakke
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by cbbakke »

Part of how I looked at skills was:
1. My thoughts on them.
2. How often I see them taken.

For example:
I like passblock, but I very rarely see it taken.


Thanks for the feedback on them. For me, I would like to see skills like shadowing get a little love so they were taken more often.

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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by neverworking »

Parsing together the thoughts on multiple threads that all tie together I would say that a great deal of issues would get solved if skills had a price tag associated with them other than the standard 20k +10k for doubles. Keeping the +10k for doubles, if "weak" skills had 10k price tags there would be less need to buff them, and if powerful skills were worth 30k there would be less need to nerf them. Its already accepted that some skills in the pricing formula carry different weights, so it seems silly this is completely abandoned later on. There would be less need of traits if the problem skills just plain carried a bigger bloat factor. The complaints that few people deviate from the standard path of team building would lead to more creativity too as players looked for synergies in pairing some less chosen skills together.

Certainly not every problem would be solved this way, but I do think as long as that notion is on the table its probably an idea that should be committed to or abandoned to bring some clarity into other design efforts. For example, many agree sneaky git should get a buff, but if making it a 10k skill was an option certain improvements to it would be less needed than if it had to carry a 20k price tag. (Remember that was an example not an effort to suggest it should be a 10k skill or that it doesn't need improvement).

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cbbakke
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Re: Review of skills as looking forward to next edition

Post by cbbakke »

I would open to a formula for skill cost. I think it may make some skills slightly more appealing, i think it is a combination of that and some skills gettinga little love to help make them worth taking. Even at 10k shadowing is not getting taken for me.

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