Garion's LRB7/CRP2 - In development

[garion]

Hi all

This all started in another thread, taking ideas from many people such as Galak, Plasmoid, Darkson, Pgoo, TTS, Whatball, Koadah, Jomanji, Voyagers_UK, Dode74, Jock McRowdy, Freak_in_a_frock, Clarkin

So thanks to all those people for their contributions not matter how big or small. Sorry if I missed anyone out.

This ruleset attached is how I would like the next version of Bloodbowl to be. For me the fun of the game was always team development and the variety of how they develop, which is something that is missing in this edition I feel. Another change is the amount of pain any team could do not just hyperbash teams like in the current rule set. There are a number of changes to the rules and skills to make skill choices more diverse and skill paths less linear. I have also incresed the number of star players in each team by 1 so Wood Elves can have Deeproot again, I also brought back the likes of Hoshi Komi and Tuern Redvenom etc... and some of the existing star players have also been tweaked. I have also tweaked some of the rosters slightly so they aren't completely rubbish, like Khemri and Ogres but I have kept them to an absolute minimum where ever possible except Amazons.

Hope you enjoy the rules. I know I would prefer them this way for the diversity in skill progression it would bring and also that the bash has been spread out more evenly between all teams now and that big guys are now important again rather than a player that gets in the way.

Anyway enjoy.

P.S. I still need some help with the pricing of the new stars, re-pricing of the goblins, and not sure if I should do anything with dwarves or not, so its still not quite finished, I will call this V1.

edit: file removed. I will update again once complete

[Chris]

I far prefer differently priced skills compared to the doubles system. And for mutation - can't only 1 team get normal access to mutations?
If you really think stand firm etc are so good might I suggest you change it. Though really for a double I would much prefer side step on 80% of players...

Also Leader belongs in the passing category. This is a game based on American football and their passers lead their teams. Get paid more to.

Fouling, only if I think the player is unmarked itself.

Secret weapons would now need a lot of re-pricing and testing and for what big advantage?

The eye was fun but also flawed. You have also moved fouling from 1 in 6 to 1 in 3 and dissadvantage inexperienced teams vs experienced when the former need more help.

Argue with the ref- on a 6 it works, on a 1 you are ejected -1 to brillant coaching and no raise the dead.

Spiralling - is set by commisses anyway...

Blitz should remain a '10'. Its a classic feature of blood bowl and people have to consider it when setting up.

Skill changes - Needed?

I of course like the toad.

Team changes are addressed all over the site.

[garion]

I far prefer differently priced skills compared to the doubles system. And for mutation - can't only 1 team get normal access to mutations? Nope, Chaos Dwarves and Skaven on doubles, and Chaos, Nurgle, Underworld and Chaos Pact all on normal rolls. Also traits is what would lead to more diverse teams, different skill prices wouldn't change what people picked, Dwarves would still spam guard, Chaos would still spam CPOMB, they would just have a slightly higher TV as a result. It would only work if you made the prices very very high, but that would put me off the game, I don't want to change the ingame mechanics by stopping people picking block etc..., I would just like a more diverse set of skills instead of the linear system we have now

If you really think stand firm etc are so good might I suggest you change it. Though really for a double I would much prefer side step on 80% of players... No way, stand firm is far better than Side Step with it's added effect, far better, plus it is a strength trait as it used to be

Also Leader belongs in the passing category. This is a game based on American football and their passers lead their teams. Get paid more to. No Leader used to be a general trait, and it is again now. Reason I have made it this way is I hate that all throwers are used for now is Leader caddys, they should be being used as throwers or at least ball carriers.

Fouling, only if I think the player is unmarked itself.

Secret weapons would now need a lot of re-pricing and testing and for what big advantage? agreed, I asked for help here, but I don't think it is that big, it is the same as in lrb4 a little bit harder to pass the roll for as couple of them, so these players still get sent off

The eye was fun but also flawed. You have also moved fouling from 1 in 6 to 1 in 3 and dissadvantage inexperienced teams vs experienced when the former need more help.

Argue with the ref- on a 6 it works, on a 1 you are ejected -1 to brillant coaching and no raise the dead. agreed, I thought I added that

Spiralling - is set by commisses anyway...

Blitz should remain a '10'. Its a classic feature of blood bowl and people have to consider it when setting up. No, the kick off table is ordered by how much of an effect that result has on the game, it should have been changed for this edition imo when get the ref got a huge nerf, games get completely ruined by blitz, many people would probably like to see it go, I wouldn't but it is as game changing as riot if not more so which is a double6 and people would still need to set up to account for it, but you wouldnt get as many games where 1 team gets blitz 3 times in a row which has happened for me and against me far more times than I would like

Skill changes - Needed? definately

I of course like the toad. what about the changes to the lightning bolt so it isnt so easy for skaven and wood elves to abuse?

[IronAge_Man]

From my first quick scan:

1) Give the Toad No Hands
2) You made the Zons BETTER?!!! I believe I suggested an alt Zon roster in the Ideas for LRB FUMBBL thread - check it out.

Also in that thread, I suggested changes to Wild Animal and questioned the whole business of rerolling armour and injury rolls.
Have a look, I think they're worth considering.

[garion]

Thanks Colin

Yup agreed toad has no hands. It is written in to the rules but yeah i should have put the skill there.

do you think the zons are better? they would certainly be better against Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves But starting with no block on any of their blockers is a big nerf I feel. Also the price increase to their 3 positionals makes it harder to have such an effective starting roster, have a play with it I think it now works out as -
4 blitzers
2 catchers
1 thrower
rest linemen
3 rr
This means they have dropped a RR or an apothecray over their current roster I believe

Also the catchers although have great movement do no start with dodge and still have av7 so they will be very vulnerable to start off with.

I will check out the changes to wild animal you suggested and about RR av and injury though I think making PO a trait and Claw means you will see alot less of them and when teams do start to get alot teams should have the necessary defensive skills.

Edit: I see, so you would like a D12 to be used for the injury instead of 2D6, interesting. And wild animal attacks the nearest person when failing the roll or some variation of that. I will have a think about that, that could be a major nerf to the Snow troll and Minotaur and I was trying to make the big guys more effective. So I'm not sure, but it is certainly more interesting.

[IronAge_Man]

Yes, you made Zons better - you left their linos (their core strength) with Dodge, gave them A access (I have no problem with this if it means they need to take Dodge first skill!), and gave their positionals more top-end (i.e. better stats). Expensive positionals only hurt teams with expensive linemen - and 50k is very cheap for what you've proposed. Agreed on the direction of an A-access Ag3 team, there aren't any others.

Wild Animals are meant to be dangerous - occasionally, them flipping out and hitting a random player will work out...other times, it'll be a disaster! They can be priced low enough to encourage people to take the risk. The last version we hit on was, on a failed WA roll, a D8 scatter, and move full MA in that direction until it hit a TZ. This works pretty well, and avoids difficulties should it ever need implementation in the client. They maybe shouldn't get SPPs for nailing their own players....

The D12 suggestion is to reduce the impact of modifiers, and equalise their effect on low and high armour, as it is a linear distribution. 2D6 makes for a binomial distribution, so a +1 modifier has a bigger impact on the steepest part of the bell-curve than towards the edges.

e.g. atm, Mighty Blow is devastating v AV7, but not so effective v AV9. On the linear D12 scale, MB increases the chances of an armour break by the same amount in both cases.

I posted my calculations, and you can see it has no effect when modifiers are not in play - KO remains 8+, Cas is 11 or 12.

[garion]

Yes, you made Zons better - you left their linos (their core strength) with Dodge, gave them A access (I have no problem with this if it means they need to take Dodge first skill!), and gave their positionals more top-end (i.e. better stats). Expensive positionals only hurt teams with expensive linemen - and 50k is very cheap for what you've proposed. Agreed on the direction of an A-access Ag3 team, there aren't any others.

Yup understood the changes you proposed to the wild animal and injury roll, need to think about them some more though.

As for Zons. I intentionally made them a better long term team, giving the blitzers Stand Firm will work wonders in the long term also agility access and the extra movement of the catchers will give them more long term imo. But don't you think the starting roster is worse?

2 players without block or dodge, no players with block, and 1 less re-roll. On the plus side they have higher movement so they can compete against dwarves/CDs and av blockers.
What I want to achieve is to make them better long term overall, better short term against dwarves and CDs but worse against everyone else than they currently are at rookie level. Do you not think this has been achieved? If not what would you propose to achieve this because it is no easy thing. All help appreciated. oh and also I'm not willing to lose Dodge from their linewomen and blitzers because that is what that team is all about. they are like norse except dodge all over not block. Norse got two st4 players who dropped block, and the idea was to do the same with the catchers here, drop their skill but make them specialist players for the long term. I want this so zons are the running and passing human team, humans are the versatile and norse the bash.

[IronAge_Man]

Giving the linewomen A access AND Dodge is a no-go, especially at 50k - It's a team full of slightly slower ghouls them - would be a hellishly effective one with a few SPPs - supremely TV efficient, with Blodge costing 70k as before, and Blodge-Side Step 90k. Compare them to Pro Elf linemen at 60k; I'd rather have the Dodge than Ag 4 on basic players (more useful defensively), and a 10k discount is a bonus. Compare them to Ghouls - they cost +20k for +1 MA.

The initial strength of the Zons is the Dodge all around - I'd probably not take their non-Dodge catchers to start with. The loss of Block on the Blitzers is a minor one, Blodge on starting players is basically just the gravy on top of the across-the-board Dodge.

[dode74]

I'm finding the title of this thread confusing. Is it a suggestion for LRB7/CRP2, or is it a suggested set of house rules? There is a fairly major difference between the two. If you are suggesting these as house rules then my response is "brilliant - let us know how it goes"; if it is a suggestion for LRB7/CRP2 then my response is to suggest that you gather playtest data and then let us know the results.

Reference the rules themselves, you know my thoughts on them - generally positive. I'll get back to you on the stars.

[garion]

This is how I would like the next edition of the rules to be, but since there will possibly never be another edition, then they would have to be house rules.

Yeah I need help with star player pricing because it seems fairly random at the moment.

And yes would love to play test my rules once I have ironed out all the kinks, like amazons. considering just getting trid of them to be honest. I hate them that much and they bring nothing good to the game. BUt will keep trying to get them right before i scrap them completely.

[cbbakke]

Are amazons even in the warhammer world?

[garion]

Maybe, maybe not, I think there is reference to them in one of the old lizardman books but bloodbowl isnt in the warhammer world ... its a parralel universe

[Darkson]

Are amazons even in the warhammer world?

Yes.

References in a Mordheim expansion and a Lizzie army book.