My beef with the bank!

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dode74
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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by dode74 »

This is not something that affects a single game per-se, but rather affects League performance.
I disagree. The ability to maintain a higher TV for longer means that for any single game within that period the team has a higher TV and more consistent team than it should. That is the single-game effect: the ability to buy a replacement instead of having a journeyman, thereby skipping the loner skill, or the ability to buy two BOBs the game after two were killed by a rampaging minotaur rather than being able to afford one and then having to save for another.

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by bouf »

dode74 wrote:
This is not something that affects a single game per-se, but rather affects League performance.
I disagree. The ability to maintain a higher TV for longer means that for any single game within that period the team has a higher TV and more consistent team than it should. That is the single-game effect: the ability to buy a replacement instead of having a journeyman, thereby skipping the loner skill, or the ability to buy two BOBs the game after two were killed by a rampaging minotaur rather than being able to afford one and then having to save for another.
But (re)buying players happens between games... So it has no affect on any one game once it's begun.

If you have 2500 TV going into a game, the post game sequence has no affect on that 2500. If I bring all that by spending a zillion in treasury or if I do that by developing a team, the results are the same. For this one game my TV is 2500.

I guess my point is, if the post game sequence is the problem, address the post game sequence accordingly.
Leave the issue where it belongs instead of bringing it on the pitch

(But, having said all that, I did caveat my comment with the ambiguous "Per-se" :wink: )

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by GalakStarscraper »

bouf wrote: I dare say that the Petty Cash System isn't busted, and has well more than enough testing.
Yup plenty enough to know it doesn't work at all and sucks.

If I'm an underdog and I'm 10k short from getting an extra re-roll for a game ... I should be able to spend 10k from my cash to get it. Currently ... doesn't happen. I want cash to have some meaning for the current game ... not just something I only think about during the post game. Currently that is all cash is for the underdog ... and I've had many many more people tell me how much that makes no sense and the rule is just worthless than I have had people say "hey we tested Petty Cash and its works just fine".

So I counter that you are incorrect ... when queried ... folks do think the Petty Cash system is busted and it like your appendix ... its there but it doesn't seem to do anything for the space it occupies.

Tom

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bouf
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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by bouf »

But what does the bank do to address this?

Okay so I'm the underdog.

Current Rules :
I have 1500 (+ 130 in treasury) in team value and I'm up against 1590 (+ 40 in Treasury)
I get 90k for free, but I want a saw... so I can spend 130 in petty cash to get it. Pushing my TV to 1630, my opponent now gets 40)

Bank Rules : (assuming a 100k limit bank)
My TV is 1530 and my opponent is 1590... now I can spend my 30k without penalty to get 90k (30+60) in inducements...
I'm right back where I was!

Confusion :
Do I get to transfer cash from the Bank to the Treasury as part of the pre-game?

If so, well I know my opponent s pretty tough and I'd still like that saw, so I can transfer an extra 60k so now my TV is 1590. I get no free inducements but I now get to spend 90k of my own gold. Well that doesn't buy me that saw... Better transfer the lot, the whole 100 out of the bank.

Well now my TV is 1630 and I get my Saw... but hey look, right back where I started again??? This Higher TV fighting team didn't spend a coin and I'm broke!

~

Am I missing something? I thought the issue was teams with high TV stockpiling cash... not the "Spend Back System"

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by Steam Ball »

That is not stockpiling, 500K is stockpiling. And the time range you have to observe is bigger than a single match. At the begining, all teams will have small savings, and the difference is moot there.

After some time, resilent teams will have big savings even if they earn the average per match. Soft teams will always be inside bank limit, as they have to replace players more often. The resilents have 2 options: spend and stay inside bank limit (as well as play a bit less risky style), or give free ammo to the enemy, which will be used to bash back without remorse (by the enemy).

So once one of those resilent teams gets a serious beating ("woooh! we smashed that putrids! finally! they went full contact and got a beating back!"), with bank the beating is trully serious and next matches it will go with one rookie and journeymen, but with petty cash it just gets a full set of rookie players. Big zone of potholes in the road vs small bump.

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by dsavillian »

ignore my post, just read the bit about the cash in the bank being unavailable until the next post-match sequence

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by bouf »

Steam Ball wrote:That is not stockpiling, 500K is stockpiling.
Apologies, I was using the example to show how the bank does nothing to help with "Spending Cash"

As far as stockpiling. If that's what we want to stop. Just say there is a Treasury limit of 300k (or something). Any excess is lost as part of the post game sequence.

If a team gets into the High TV mark then the spiralling expenses will slowly eat away his winnings and then slowly eat up his treasury. Why go through all this malarky and unintended penalties and side effects just to re-instate an old rule that is no longer best practice.

Let go of the past! Live in the now!!!

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by Steam Ball »

Treasury cap means nobody is allowed to keep more than 300 (if I understand what you mean with that term). Bank means you can save more than 100-150, just under coach decision and with consequences (free ammo). I see Bank a bit more flexible, and even more encouraging to level bashing, including levels before Spiralling Expenses kicks in.

BTW, it isn't introduce the Bank, it's restore the (tested) Bank. ;) Petty cash is the (poorly tested) usurper. Forgetting good things because they're the past seems a bad excuse to not correct errors. :)

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by bouf »

Steam Ball wrote:Treasury cap means nobody is allowed to save more than X (if I understand what you mean with that term). Bank means you can save more than Y, just under coach decision and with consequences (free ammo). I see Bank a bit more flexible, and even more encouraging to level bashing.

BTW, it isn't introduce the Bank, it's restore the (tested) Bank. ;) Petty cash is the (poorly tested) usurper. Forgeting good things because they are past seems a bad thing. :)

Next you'll tell me that the old handicap system was good... and Tested... and IGMEOY was "Tactical"
< :roll: Much rolling of eyes on that last one! :roll: >

I actually don't like a Treasury cap... I'd prefer some kind of "Exponential Spiral"

1810 = -10
1960 = -20
2210 = -40
2360 = -70
2510 = -110
2660 = -160
(a bit extreme but you get the point - Venture above and you're broke!)

But maybe a Salary cap is needed.
The Root Cause may not be the Cash available to teams, but rather the Team Value of teams.

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dode74
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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by dode74 »

I agree that SE could be set up better (see here), and I think that SE is your "salary cap".

Currently bash teams can get way past the sustainable TV and stay there for a long time while being able to replace losses with a buffer of (in many cases) over 1,000,000GP. That's a long time - with standard SE that could be as long as 30 games at ~2950TV. What the bank does is remove that buffer and reduce the time spent at very high TV.

What the bank also does at sub-SE TVs is level the playing field for all races. Agi teams rarely have much in the bank (my 40-game 2000TV Delves haven't got above 150k so far) and therefore often find it hard to replace losses even at lower TV. Bash teams can easily build a large (300+) warchest by 1500TV, meaning that they can absorb what few losses they do take very easily. The bank would even this out by allowing the coach to either plan for the next game (by keeping the cash) while taking a disadvantage this game (by giving away as much in inducements), or to go all out this game (by either getting rid of the cash through ACs and cheerleader trading or by buying inducements).

Personally I think it's a very nice solution. It's tried and tested and adds a little tactical thought to your team management.

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by GalakStarscraper »

bouf wrote:As far as stockpiling. If that's what we want to stop. Just say there is a Treasury limit of 300k (or something). Any excess is lost as part of the post game sequence.
Because that removes choices for team management from the coach. Less decisions is considered by most the coaches we worked with as less fun. If I don't care about the penalities than who are you to tell me I cannot have to give up the cash I earned.

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by bouf »

Well at least we're off this silly "underdog spends treasury toward inducements" bit...
With or without the bank, it's exactly the same.

I obviously don't get something here... Take me through it

I get that forcing someone to throw away their treasury prevents teams from riding the high TV wave. No worries there... Understood and supported.

Why bank 100k aside, but apply the rest to TV?
Why increase that to 150?
Why not apply the whole treasury to TV?

I mean if there is no difference between the Petty Cash and Bank system (with regard to inducements), I'm lost as to why you'd involve TV (being the system for balancing matches).

Why introduce even the potential to imbalance a match at all???

(am I coming off snarky? Not my intention. I'm actually really enjoying this debate!)
(too many interesting conversations get ruined by the Internet... :wink: )

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by Piousman »

bouf wrote:Well at least we're off this silly "underdog spends treasury toward inducements" bit...
With or without the bank, it's exactly the same.
Not necessarily. You game a specific example, that was not necessarily the only option.

What if I have 110k in treasury, and the opponnent has 120k. the TV spread is 130k.

Under Petty Cash rules, I would get 130k in inducements.
Under the Bank Rules I get 140k in inducements, and the chance to get to 150k if I spend my treasury.

In general this formula will work anytime the opponent has more than the bank amount in the treasury (and preferably more than you have over-bank also). If you are the only one with over-bank cash, then if does not work.

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by GalakStarscraper »

bouf wrote:Why increase that to 150?
The move to 150k was so that anything could be saved for to improve your team without effecting your TV (other than a Deathroller).
Why not apply the whole treasury to TV?
Because if I'm saving for a re-roll for my Chaos team and have 130k in cash and there is a 20k different in TV between me and my opponent ... giving him a Wizard for the match because I'm saving for a way to develop my team was not the rule's intention.
Why introduce even the potential to imbalance a match at all???
Because as pointed out before ... if high end teams had more difficulty at the top recovering from a bad match that could make the ebb and flow matter more.

One of the online matchmaker systems I've seen used. Grab a team with just 11 linemen. Collect cash from each game and only use Journeymen to replace players. Once you reach enough cash to buy your perfect team and still have say 1M in the bank ... do that. Never worry about money again.

That wasn't what the system was supposed to allow ... but it does because of JJ's change. Its the extreme abuse side of the equation ... but its shows that you can avoid your team having to deal much with ebb and flow as was intended in the rules with just sheer game volume.

Tom

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Re: My beef with the bank!

Post by Darkson »

bouf wrote:Next you'll tell me that [snip] IGMEOY was "Tactical"
< :roll: Much rolling of eyes on that last one! :roll: >
It was - much more tactical than the rubbish fouling rules we have now.

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