Crazy suggested Rewrite for the Amazons

[zerodemon]

I think the point is that giving every player on a team universal access to one skill is a little lazy. The concepts for both of the original Norse and Amazon teams revolved around "THEY'VE ALL GOT BLOCK/DODGE". This kind of worked with the Norse and even more so with the tweaks that have been made to the team. With the Amazon team, they're pretty much still in beta.

They don't need block particularly, as long as they have wrestle on the blitzer. They all have G access so block access will come with time for most players. A skill access grants them the ability to take dodge also. Giving extra players block would be silly. Why would Amazons have extra positional block access when a) it's a Norse thing and b) most other teams only start with block on blitzers.

Finally, it's ok for the team to be fragile. Pro-Elves are fragile too and can be very effective both short and long term.

Short term, Doubleskull's team has some nifty skill access to get the ball up the pitch, very little in the way of hitting power (like most light teams) and the proper skills to replace a higher AG for both Throwers and Catchers. Fend on linewomen means that unsuccessful opening tackles allow your players to move away from repeated big hits anyway, making the majority of your team more survivable, except for the odd blitz. Catchers come with dodge as standard so they'll be fine to run away all day long. Fend on throwers makes sense (since they're more specialised linemen.) Blitzers are probably fine without it, having the higher AV and Wrestle to protect them, but it makes sense for them to have it too.

Long term, GA access means blodge and wrodge will be mandatory on some players but that's ok. It's mostly mandatory for everyone else too. Putting some S skills on the blitzers to allow for the occasional important blitz is also available.

The point is we shouldn't be looking to make them equal to their current profile. Dodge team wide and a standard statline makes them both boring and far too easy to use early on, despite the AV weakness. I'd rather put them in the "challenging to coach" bracket by accentuating their AV weakness and giving them a different strength (like a good passing game). I think most of the statlines previously mentioned in this thread are better than the current CRP lineup for precisely this reason (save for the AV8 idea, which just makes them in to the current human team with very slight rule special rule changes. Sorry.) The same line-up with AV7, at 50K 80k 70k 90k is probably about right.

[harroguk]

And out of interest why does near universal access to pass (and passing skills) not appeal. It is quite different to any other team out there...

Universal 3+ rerollable pass is equivalent (almost) to elves with no pass skill. I don't feel that they really fill a niche with that they just make bad elves as they don't get the AG bonuses to catch.

[DoubleSkulls]

Really good passing teams only pass the ball about twice a game, so universal Pass is just meh... I'd rather have universal shadowing or pass block.

I thought briefly about how the common 'zon minis do not look Av8, but my Shadowforge nuns do so I forgot it was a problem.

I just think that fundamentally the team needs to be a little tougher, and taking away universal dodge makes them much more vulnernable, so you'll probably chomp through linewomen as fast as skaven team get through line rats. Without the intense speed of Skaven 'zons are going to struggle.

[legowarrior]

I had an idea for a universal Nerves of Steel Team once. It got no traction. Poor Cathay, no one wanted to play with 5/3/3/8 Nerves of Steel.

[dines]

Just can't see amazons as AV8 even though the team might work out fine. But giving them all pass would suck big time... And who have ever heard of girls who are good at throwing balls?

[Xadie]

So we're back to square one: AV7 lines need some starting defense skill. I think all agree another team starting with huge amounts of block is not desired. That only leaves dodge and wrestle.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Blitzers should all start with mighty blow!

[Chris]

So we're back to square one: AV7 lines need some starting defense skill. I think all agree another team starting with huge amounts of block is not desired. That only leaves dodge and wrestle.

Well the other option is give up on the linewomen and have better positionals. But the only way to do that is increase stats. Ma is a given, but really the catchers would need ag4 to have any real growth potential.

[Shteve0]

Let me have another shot at screwing this up, I worry that the below might actually be close to balanced (skip to the end for full roster - between is reasoning)

It seems that there is support for:
- zons being the most effective "passing" humans, but not losing their running game
- getting rid of the starting blodge
- developing (a) unique positional(s), using an underutilised skill

I'm assuming that, where orcs are bashy, elves are agile, and skaven are fast, humans are the 'flexible' race in BB in that they can adapt their game to exploit the weaknesses of their opponents. I also assumes that Norse are taken to be the bashiest of the human teams, the Human roster should be the most adaptable of all and, therefore, Amazons could make a nice niche in the passing game (though I insist they're currently a bash-lite team and would want a nod to that retained).

Given that, the fact that the Human roster is far more capable of pulling off a passing game than Zons needs fixing. My first amazon fix is therefore actually on the human roster:

Human Catcher
0-2 Catcher 6 3 3 8 Catch, Sure Feet GA SP 70k

It's basically a case of taking the amazon catcher, upping the AV and dropping dodge (as reversal of what shall henceforth be known as "the amazon principle") but also adding a free Sure Feet skill, both to keep them as the Human-roster's pacy option and for the logical synergy with the human thrower's Sure Hands. I've then moved the human catcher over to Zons, like so:

Amazon Catcher
0-4 Catcher 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Catch GA PS 70k

Meanwhile, I really like plasmoid's idea of giving everyone on the zon roster A skill access, so I've done that for the Throwers and Linewomen. I've always felt that the thrower and catcher were slightly (read: totally) redundant on the amazon roster, but with the Human/Zon catcher swap (and resulting passing game option) I think the thrower comes into her own.

0-16 Linewoman 6 3 3 7 Dodge GA SP 50k
0-2 Thrower 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass GAP S 70k

Finally, for the amazons unique player, my thoughts are:
- she must be a she. Duh!
- she must be human. No animals, no big guys, no gimmicks... she has MA7, AG3 and ST3, just like the human blitzer.
- she must be amazon, so has G and A skill access, AV7 and Dodge automatically
- this team can outrun and outpass slow teams but also needs to be able to put a little hurt on the better passing sides. I'm therefore suggesting the UP is 0-4 (like human blitzer) and has S access.
- i've gone for a skill that works well on the offense but still leaves the player vulnerable on defense - blodge spam, after all, is the reason I think we're talking about this in the first place.

0-4 Jaguar 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Juggernaut GAS P 90k

I can see this player being handy for pushing holes in a line to flood through, particularly as the Juggernaut cancels Stand Firm, Wrestle and Fend, and turns a both down into a push.

So, the complete roster!:

0-16 Linewoman 6 3 3 7 Dodge GA SP 50k
0-2 Thrower 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass GAP S 70k
0-4 Catcher 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Catch GA PS 70k
0-4 Jaguar 7 3 3 7 Dodge, Juggernaut GAS P 90k
0-8 Reroll 50k

Thanks for your patience! Demolish away

[spubbbba]

I’m not a huge fan of making human catchers slower than the blitzers. 70K is a good deal for a lineman with dodge, catch and A access but doesn’t really have a defined role in the team.

As for your team they are still worse than the human team at passing as the throwers lack sure hands. Humans don’t pass now unless they are desperate or the coach using them is not very good so you’d need to give them something else to favour the passing game. Maybe NoS on the throwers and/or diving catch on the catchers?

I like the idea of Jaguar warriors with extra MA and Juggernaut. However I feel if the team is going to gain agility access across the board they should lose starting dodge on at least some of the players.

[Shteve0]

Note I've given the human catcher sure feet, not dodge. I think that balanced the speed and pricing slightly - let me know if you disagree. 7337 catch, SF might be better... but would push cost to 80k imho.

I don't like the idea of some players not having dodge if all others on the roster do (assuming all are the same race)... It's lazy design. Personally, I like race traits to be consistent across the roster, and minimal in footprint. It still gets my goat the khemri linemen have thick skull and the positionals don't. It's simply ugly design. I'd rather see Nerves of Steel spammed across the Khemri roster, thick skull off the lino and that damn decay taken off the TG. But that's a whole different argument I'm not going to win

Generally, I don't actually take passers or catchers at all for zons (pc game) but these i'd start with one of each of while I skilled the (now more delicate) Jaguars. The Jaguars themselves would have interesting development options... StripBall+Leap, Guard+Sidestep, Frenzy+Tackle+MightyBlow for catcher hunting, PileOn+JumpUp... Remember, block is not essential for blitzing, since Juggernaut means there's no chance the Jaguar can be forced to base the opponent afterwards (unless you take frenzy, of course). And regular SAG access keeps costs down long term. Block or wrestle may only be their 3rd or 4th skill choice in some cases.

Edit: I'd be delighted to see sure hands on the thrower, but it feels a bit obvious. Elves don't have it, and they're a fairly capable passing team

[dodolulu]

I'm assuming that, where orcs are bashy, elves are agile, and skaven are fast, humans are the 'flexible' race in BB in that they can adapt their game to exploit the weaknesses of their opponents. I also assumes that Norse are taken to be the bashiest of the human teams, the Human roster should be the most adaptable of all and, therefore, Amazons could make a nice niche in the passing game (though I insist they're currently a bash-lite team and would want a nod to that retained).

imho:
while human teams can play the bashgame somewhat successful against agile teams, they cant play the agile game against bash teams, so while your prerequisite might be right conceptually it is in fact wrong.
as long as the block/bash game bases on competing rolls (str against str), but the (already less reliable) agile game bases purely on your own agi, no race with ag3 or less will be sucessful in playing the agile game without absurd amounts of bonusskills to their players.

[Shteve0]

Skaven cope. Difference here is a point of movement each off the thrower and catcher, and the catcher having the catch skill rather than AG4. Little else. If the catcher had diving catch instead of catch, would that solve it?

Specialist teams have such a good plan A that plan B comes very hard (just try playing a fluid passing game with dwarves). Humans are generalists. The point is not that these zons are a good passing team, it's that they're a good passing team against orcs, dwarves, chaos... and better at adapting to that game than Norse or Humans.

[Chris]

The big problem with an average stat line is that you are always a bit stuffed.

You can compensate at the start with skills, but then you don't have much development before the combination of skills and better starting stats pummels you. So giving x or y skill just delays that point.

The Skaven survive longer than other low armour ag 3 teams because fo the gutter runners and overall speed. The Norse got re-jigged to have some players with better development potential.

Poor old humans suffer because they even find it hard to outbash elves if they don't get a few early sucesses. The agility means the elves are away and massing against your players. Skilling up early on helps, but once the elves have done the same their initial advantages are magnified.

So you can make Amazons better (after nerfing dodge) in the short term with skills but it doesn't help much past the first dozen games.

Looking at Amazons the blitzers are good, but what is best about them is they are good out of the box so with developed teams as you lose them you don't suffer as much as humans do. But it does make them rather good at the start. If you weaken them though you really impact that later tv game.

It is hard to see a place for them, we have fast and fragile with skaven, we have fragile and bashy. It is tempting to consider a skaven/ghoul stat line of 7/3/3/7 - are they comparable to them? The idea around making them a passing team is I think good, until you look at elves and wonder how you avoid looking like a pale imitation of them. Maybe we should just go off the wall with something crazy like fend and shadowing everywhere and stuff like that.

[Shteve0]

Whaaaaaat? Compare the numbers. On a zon roster you can pick up 2 catchers, a thrower, 2 blitzers and 6 linewomen for 690k. For the cheapest elf team - Elves - thats going to set you back 850k. Thats 160k difference, and these guys are AHEAD on the skill curve. What the current roster lacks is the pace (i think ive addressed that) to match, and that +AG. What they gain is bodies and natural S access on 4 blitzers (vs the 2 elf blitzers with no natural S access), plus every player is harder to take down in a fight.

With an accurate thrower and diving catch on a catcher or two, this side is equally capable of pulling off a passing play as an out of the box pro elf team, and has better attrition. Granted, 11 vs 11 in a developed league the elves are in theory superior, but natural guard and mighty blow access, or even JU/PO, on 4 players - plus an assumed headstart on treasury and inducements - should help out. I'd have to see the numbers to be convinced these guys would fall too far behind on long term win %.