Garion's CRP 2nd Edition WIP

[garion]

Edit: Updated 20/10/2012 Haven't touched this for a long time because I've been so busy. But I am a little closer to completion now.

probably made more changes some people will really object too but thats fine with me

Not sure about the new kick-off table, think i prefered my previous version, but someone asked me to try this out. So I will see how it goes.

[dode74]

That's very different to the first draft we spoke about some time ago. I'll take a thorough look through later, but a few first impressions:
- Negatrait removal should cost 50TV, imo.
- Up & Under is a pretty powerful skill. Glad you made that a trait.
- Soft Lander needs a maximum, otherwise AV9 players who take this skill will never be carted off. I suggest that any roll of 11 or more should still break AV.
- Don't like WA as you have it. We've discussed that in the other thread.
- Not a fan of random mutations.
- Don't like the Amazon roster you have, although it might be a decent start point. Suggest 0-2 catchers 7247 DC/NOS GA/SP and 0-4 blitzers 6338 wrestle/dodge GS/AP.
- Dwarf costing is poor, imo. If they lose block then blockers should cost 60k, blitzers should cost 100k with tackle.
- Khemri TGs are too powerful imo. Make the AV8 with thick skull.
- Skaven - if you keep random mutations then several players should be able to take them on single rolls. Either just the linemen or the RO and SVs, or the GRs.
- Not looked at the stars yet.

[garion]

That's very different to the first draft we spoke about some time ago. I'll take a thorough look through later, but a few first impressions:
- Negatrait removal should cost 50TV, imo.
- Up & Under is a pretty powerful skill. Glad you made that a trait.
- Soft Lander needs a maximum, otherwise AV9 players who take this skill will never be carted off. I suggest that any roll of 11 or more should still break AV.
- Don't like WA as you have it. We've discussed that in the other thread.
- Not a fan of random mutations.
- Don't like the Amazon roster you have, although it might be a decent start point. Suggest 0-2 catchers 7247 DC/NOS GA/SP and 0-4 blitzers 6338 wrestle/dodge GS/AP.
- Dwarf costing is poor, imo. If they lose block then blockers should cost 60k, blitzers should cost 100k with tackle.
- Khemri TGs are too powerful imo. Make the AV8 with thick skull.
- Skaven - if you keep random mutations then several players should be able to take them on single rolls. Either just the linemen or the RO and SVs, or the GRs.
- Not looked at the stars yet.

First off you miss understand Soft lander it only has its effect on failed leaps and failed TTMs not failed dodges etc...
agree with skaven,

no to negtrait removal costing more if it is the same as +st everyone will just pick +st or the double I want it to be a tough choice.
Dwarf costing, maybe, not sure though, they still seem fine for that price.
no to ag4, on zons, this is the best roster i have seen so far, and Im happy with it, so it stays.they are interesting again and fun. and they have a big guy that fits their fluff.
Khemri are not too powerful at all, i used to play against them in lrb4 when they all had MB and i didnt think they were too powerful then so they certainly arent now.
WA has changed a bit, its very hard to get that right, but haven't had a better suggestion yet
up and under is great true but as you say its a trait but it also makes kick off return more useful and it gets negated by bad kick

[dode74]

Soft lander works on GFIs as well, doesn't it? That is my particular concern with that skill.
I priced the dwarves based on Galak's guide. Overall it actually makes the team cheaper.

As to the rest, enjoy the house rules

[burgun824]

I've down loaded and given a quick once through. Very nice presentation. I'll have to read through it more thoroughly when I have more time to dedicate to it. The only thing that sprung out at me was I think Blunderbuss/Bazooka should be 9+ and sword should be listed as sword/stakes.

Oh yeah...and human catchers should be ST3. I kid...I kid!

[garion]

Soft lander works on GFIs as well, doesn't it? That is my particular concern with that skill.
I priced the dwarves based on Galak's guide. Overall it actually makes the team cheaper.

As to the rest, enjoy the house rules

Will check the dwarves again but in galaks guide yiu have the freedom to add or take away 10k from the final cost. It says that in a section I forget which one. Nope it doesnt work on gfis just leap and ttm

[dode74]

Soft Lander (Agility Skill)
If the player fails a leap, GFI or landing from a TTM attempt they may subtract 2 from either the armour roll or injury roll. This doesn't work with failed dodges or when being blocked/blitzed. This skill also allows you to Re-roll failed landings from TTM actions

The copy I downloaded yesterday says GFIs. Without that I'd be happy enough, but I also think it would make the skill rather useless.

You do have that freedom on Galak's list, but Blitzers would be 20k low (actually 30k before rounding down from the 110k they come out at). I don't think that without block that a dwarf lineman is worth the same as a DElf lineman, and I think that the extra cost will make it worse for dwarves at high TV.

3) Any player's final calculated price may be modified by 10k more or less from the calculated
price to achieve overall team balance. This is pretty important to balancing a roster in the long run.

[garion]

okay, yup that uis a typo, it shouldn't say GFI, and it isnt useless it is just a skill that only stunty players will take.

but thanks, that is two typos I have found so far.

and yup said I would take a look at dwarves but Im fine with it being a little worse for dwarves at all Tvs really, especially with the reduced frequency of Claw.

[Afroman]

I really love what you have done for the flings.

Soft Lander is a gift. Don't think it's too powerful since it will delay the much needed Surefeet on a fling(or be delayed by it). The AV thing is a bonus really, what I like is the chance of a dedicated TTM reroll.

Dirty Tackle. Good in theory, and a good skill but a perfect way to make a fling a target(more than usual). Maybe it's not really for the Flings? would be great with Diving Tackle(But getting two skills on a fling is quite an accomplishment).

Take Root. MUCH better. really. I always wonderer why the trees had the worst Nega trait of them all? And what made it so bad was that you couldn't get rid of it once you rolled that one. Now you can. But why do you need to roll twice to get unroot?(a 6+ and a 2+). Why not make it simple and say, 2+ to stay unrooted and 6+ to get unrooted. period?
Aahhh, one thing I've been missing since it was taken away after third edition, let the flings help when the trees stand up!

On a non-fling comment, I've seen more interesting amazon Cockerel out there but the one you've suggested is a balanced as any.

On the whole I like the document. Very interesting changes and I would be curios to try them.

[garion]

I really love what you have done for the flings.

Dirty Tackle. Good in theory, and a good skill but a perfect way to make a fling a target(more than usual). Maybe it's not really for the Flings? would be great with Diving Tackle(But getting two skills on a fling is quite an accomplishment).
...
Take Root. MUCH better. really. I always wonderer why the trees had the worst Nega trait of them all? And what made it so bad was that you couldn't get rid of it once you rolled that one. Now you can. But why do you need to roll twice to get unroot?(a 6+ and a 2+). Why not make it simple and say, 2+ to stay unrooted and 6+ to get unrooted. period?
Aahhh, one thing I've been missing since it was taken away after third edition, let the flings help when the trees stand up!
...
On the whole I like the document. Very interesting changes and I would be curios to try them.

Thanks for the feedback it is much appreciated.

Dirty tackle is a 2nd edition skill re-written so its no incredibly powerful. It was so much for the flings, though they could get some use out of it too. It was more for the normal agile races really. But its a nice skill and gives you something to think about now when elves get a double and opens up a new interesting development path, that was my aim with the rules really

glad you like soft lander.

On the tree's take root, they roll the 6+ at the start of the turn before anything else is done. The reason I did that is so you can then use Blitz with them again that turn, but it comes at a risk of becoming rooted again. Your way means you will not take the risk off blitzing again until the turn after it is free again. Plus it will be fuinny if they up root, then blitz and take root again. Would just add to the charm of flings for me

flings helping trees stand up hmmm.... will have a think about that.

[garion]

come on 38 downloads, 3 pieces of feedback, more please

Burgun did you get a chance to look through it all?

[Juriel]

Alright then, what else would I do at work... I'm gonna comment as I read through this, in order.

- I don't like Secret Weapon rolls to stay on the pitch. They introduce additional randomness. I like gobbo buffs, but I'd rather make the match outcome relying on something besides rolls between turns.
- A separate roll for ref, then practically no penalty for always arguing with him? This seems like a stupid amount of extra rolls for the same end result.
- The change to Spiralling Expenses just delays its effect. Pointless change that also encourages higher TVs.
- I kind of like the bank rule, but it's silly to apply it and then raise the Spiralling Expenses range, so bashy teams are still not affected at all.
- Like the reshuffled kick-off event table. Preferrably Pitch Invasion would get totally removed, of course.
- Trait is a good idea for limiting access to certain powerful skills.. However, only PO/U&U counts as such from the current trait list. Diving Tackle only on doubles and at +30k price? That looks like something only someone who wants elves to have an even easier time would suggest.
- Don't like removing nega-traits. Those would make big guys totally too awesome.
- Okay, Up and Under makes this look like an elf buff rulesbook even more. Receiving team don't even get a chance to handle the ball on their turn? Wow... Words fail me.
- Dirty Tackle is only an Agility skill? Too weak for people to ever pick it.
- Love Taunt's effect. But it's too weak to pick as a skill by itself, needs to be combined with some other skill.
- Soft Lander could be a nice buff to stunties.
- Like the change to Dirty Player, and Sneaky Git really needs a change (and thus a buff for the stunties), but since these Ref rules suck, I'm ignoring that change.
- Holy crap, you buffed Wild Animal so it's plain better than Bonehead now? Like the basic idea, but this is too good.
- I like randomizing the mutations somewhat, but it also then requires buffing the teams that previously made use of them.

[Juriel]

- Wizard does NOT need a further buff. It needs to get toned down, if anything. It also helps elves the most, so any buff to it buffs elves, which is... yeah.
- Amazon Catchers got nerfed? Wow, no point to ever pick them. And you got rid of their blitzers? Well, this team really sucks, and is even more boring now.
- No change to Chaos at all, even with the totally random mutations? So the only reliable plan for them now is the Block/Guard route, and Orcs are better at that.
- A buff to the chaos dwarf big guy option? They don't need a buff.
- Reducing Dwarf Tackle spam is the right idea, but not giving them anything new still makes them extremely limited in scope. And buffs elves.
- Khemri losing Decay and Blitz/Thro-Ras getting Thick Skull is exactly what the team needs.
- I find it hilarious that you nerf Norse by getting rid of their Thrower, but Orcs still get to keep theirs.
- Oh, Ogre team Ogres going up to 8 max? That would make an enormous difference, but now they also kill EVERYTHING. Snot MA6 is a much better step.

[Juriel]

So, one good idea for every six bad ones. You can do better.

[garion]

Alright then, what else would I do at work... I'm gonna comment as I read through this, in order.

- I don't like Secret Weapon rolls to stay on the pitch. They introduce additional randomness. I like gobbo buffs, but I'd rather make the match outcome relying on something besides rolls between turns. Just completely disagree here, and 99% of people that read it are glad they are back. So no change there

- A separate roll for ref, then practically no penalty for always arguing with him? This seems like a stupid amount of extra rolls for the same end result. again wrong, there is a penalty as you can no longer argue and you are at a disadvantage for kick off results, this is the same as lrb4 and very large number of people considered far better than doubles for sending off, etc.. just check the - what do you miss most... thread in general

- The change to Spiralling Expenses just delays its effect. Pointless change that also encourages higher TVs. Hmm i really dont think you understand this.... this is something that has already been tested in a number of leagues, yes it delays the effect, but it also has sharper increase, it is so it doesnt punish teams that are still building. It also prevents higher TVs more than the current rule.
- I kind of like the bank rule, but it's silly to apply it and then raise the Spiralling Expenses range, so bashy teams are still not affected at all. again I dont think you understand, see above

- Like the reshuffled kick-off event table. Preferrably Pitch Invasion would get totally removed, of course. yeah me too, but I wont do that
- Trait is a good idea for limiting access to certain powerful skills.. However, only PO/U&U counts as such from the current trait list. Diving Tackle only on doubles and at +30k price? That looks like something only someone who wants elves to have an even easier time would suggest. Diving tackle isnt a Trait? read it again!
- Don't like removing nega-traits. Those would make big guys totally too awesome. Disagree again, firstly its only on a double 6 so you have to pick between a double a St+ and a removal whihc is tough enough. Then you still cant remove loner, so they still can't re-roll anything with success

- Okay, Up and Under makes this look like an elf buff rulesbook even more. Receiving team don't even get a chance to handle the ball on their turn? Wow... Words fail me. Again yes they do, you clearly havent read this properly? and there are two counters to it as well?
- Dirty Tackle is only an Agility skill? Too weak for people to ever pick it. No dirty tackle is an agility trait not skill, and its really not too weak, +1 to av and injury? it powerful, have had feedback saying the opposite, so I'm happy with it
- Love Taunt's effect. But it's too weak to pick as a skill by itself, needs to be combined with some other skill.again had feedback saying its too strong, in a ruleset that is geared toward positional play and not the silly hyperbash/hyperball game that is played now this would be very effective when comined with skills like tentacles or diving tackle dirty tackle etc...

- Soft Lander could be a nice buff to stunties.
- Like the change to Dirty Player, and Sneaky Git really needs a change (and thus a buff for the stunties), but since these Ref rules suck, I'm ignoring that change. Again, I dont think you understand the change to the ref rules.... its basically the same as LRB4 which was the far superior mechnism for fouling a ref etc...

- Holy crap, you buffed Wild Animal so it's plain better than Bonehead now? Like the basic idea, but this is too good. yeah Im still not sure about this, but again some people say, WOW you made him worse, others say Wow you made him far better??? So not sure?

- I like randomizing the mutations somewhat, but it also then requires buffing the teams that previously made use of them. disagree, those teams did fine before when all mutations were traits and could only be obtained on a double, and there was ageing back then as well which meant getting skilled mutation players was even harder, also most of the mutations have a received a buff as well.