Garion's CRP 2nd Edition WIP

[garion]

hi mattski, yeah your concerns are the same as mine, which is why I have left it as throwing is seperate for now. However I am at work today, so will continue with this today, I have spotted a few typos and things I need to change first, but then I am going to do alot of probability maths today, to see how else this could be done, with Darksons suggestion taken into consideration as well.

I definately do not want more than 6 stat lines though. I like the change to St I think that works well but the agility one is tricky, making one skill for ball handling throwing etc and one just for dodging hypno gaze etc.. means most teams will end up having the same stats, the logic step if i want to do that is move all rolls to 2d6 rather than 1 but that is a HUGE change.

[garion]

Okay made some big changes again to see what it looks like - changed the stat lines to D12 for agility. Agility is now split up into ag for doging leap and hypno gaze, and ball handling for passing catching picking up.

I've done a lot of maths (more than I have probably done in the last 20 years combined) so it all looks good now, D8, D10, 2D6 didn't really work, but D12 fits nicely.

Anyway, take a look see what you think, there are some definate positives to it. But I'm still not sure about the more stat lines thing or increase from D6 to D12 this draft is just to gauge reaction really.

[garion]

I have decided against the extra stat lines etc.. it just makes the feel of the game too serious. So I think this is the finished version. check the OP for the link to the document.

edit: havent linked it in the op yet the internet went down at work at the wrong time, it will go in on monday.

[Joemanji]

Cool is a better name than Ball Handling, and it was in 2nd ed. anyway.

+1 AG should not be made more frequent by being available on a 10. BH (or Cool) is fine on 10s, but not AG imo. Perhaps the D12 table reduces the effect of this.

Not sure I like the moving of ST / T from 12 either. When I originally suggested these splits, the idea was to tone down development paths, where +ST now on the right player is crazy good and can break a team. Would need testing of course.

Love D12 agility rolls.

[Joemanji]

I think you've overcomplicated this. Better than introducing new statlines (especially where the majority are the same as the "old" version) would be a new skill applied to the players you want them to apply to. I would use:
Toughness (Extraordinary) - the player's ST is increased by 1 when blocked.
Glass Jaw (Extraordinary) - the player's ST is decreased by 1 when blocked.
Spiral Throw (Extraordinary) - the player's AG is increased by 1 when attempting to throw the ball.
Weak Arm (Extraordinary) - the player's AG is decreased by 1 when attempting to throw the ball.

You get the same effect with far fewer (nugatory, in most cases) stats.

Also, costing would need adjusting whether you go for the statlines or the skills.

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[mattski]

I have decided against the extra stat lines etc.. it just makes the feel of the game too serious.

Shame though I can understand as these things tend to spiral out of control (especially when you allow the wider world to have a say on them!) but splitting ST was the best thing in the rules I thought and went some way to breaking up the dominance of ST as the be-all and end-all (along with Block of course).

Am still interested in hearing how you get on with these rules though and playtest feedback is eagerly anticipated.

[garion]

Well I have since received a lot of good feedback on the new stat lines, so from monday (the next day I'm at work I think I will keep goign with both versions if the game, so one document will have normal stat lines the other the more advanced rules. Then once they are completely finishd which isnt far away at all now, then I will see which people prefer.

As for play testing, I don't think this will happen until next year sometime, but when it does I will let you know so you can play with a team or two (it will be online)

[mattski]

Online you say...with new stat lines...count me in. In fact if you need any playtesting prior to it then feel free to pm me and I will be more than happy to help out in any way that I can.

Edit: No idea as to how you are going to implement your online league but if you are taking suggestions (see, this is what happens when you throw it open to the unwashed masses) then take a look at this article: http://www.sg.tacticalwargames.net/fanatic/65st.pdf (pm if you have trouble getting it). Simultaneous turns changed the game for me into something really akin to a real sporting event and I think that they would fit in with so many of your suggestions like a glove.

[garion]

similtaneous turns is funny, i ve seen that before. But no, I wont be doing that

[yggdrasil]

I definitely like a lot of these rules, and will try and incorporate many of them into my own games. I really like the Soft Lander skill, for example. Will be taking a closer look.

[garion]

Thanks, I would love it if you used all of the rules for a season just to see how it plays out, then feed back to me.


if you do let me know, and get someone to take a mutation race and remember big guys are more useful now too

[gandresch]

Hi,

i read your file and i like some of the thoughts and dislike some others.
A way to make the game more variable is to use not only d6 but higher dice. I would appreciate d10 instead of d12, but the idea behind it is the same. So thumbs up for this one!
On the other hand, i really don't like the idea of using more stats on a player. Instead I would favor to give certain positions certain bonuses. So instead of using "BH" and "T" just give throwers a +1 on pick ups e.g. and blitzers something else. With a d10 or d12 scale this may work as well and there is no need for an extra stat.
Most of the other things try to find the way between LRB4 and 6. But in this case, i think there are certainly better ways. For example reinventing the "Skill/Trait" thing from LRB4 makes way to much complexity. As i think that most of the changes are because of some skill combinations (Claw+stuff), there might be a better way. Just change 1 or 2 of the skills and it works pretty well again.
Using the SW together with a dice roll!? This is used on LRB4. When looking at the cost of bribes you can induce, this helps a lot. But on the other hand, this makes SW very strong again. I would prefer if the dice rolls are reduced by 1 or 2 points, so that there is a possibility to stay on the pitch but with the higher possibility of getting bribes, the SW does not become overpowered.
I like the idea of changing the KO-table! Although there must be a possibility to make the game a bit more unpredictable. Therefor I would not set the Blitz (which is 1 of 6 at this points) to 2 (which means 1 of 36) but to 3 or 11. So perhaps just switch with Throw A Rock. on the other hand I like High Kick and would simply change the Kick Skill to "Additionally, the coach of the receiving team is not allowed to place a player under the square the ball will land in on High Kick event."

Just some thoughts at this point. But still great work to rethink the rules and try to make them better!

gan

[garion]

hi Gandresch,

Thanks for the feedback will answer in red in the quote

Hi,

i read your file and i like some of the thoughts and dislike some others.
A way to make the game more variable is to use not only d6 but higher dice. I would appreciate d10 instead of d12, but the idea behind it is the same. So thumbs up for this one!

I spent a long time doing a lot of maths on this one, D10 just didnt add up well, I looked at D8 D10 2D6 and D12 and D12 worked the best by a long way. While in some ways it is similar to D6 it opens up a lot more scope for development, injuries and basically making more unique players without altering too much of the original balance

On the other hand, i really don't like the idea of using more stats on a player. Instead I would favor to give certain positions certain bonuses. So instead of using "BH" and "T" just give throwers a +1 on pick ups e.g. and blitzers something else. With a d10 or d12 scale this may work as well and there is no need for an extra stat.

Again this is something that was considered as it is more in line with how it worked in 2nd ed. But I found that to be more clunky and complex, with the extra stat lines it is just a case of learning the new agility table and the odds and then you will be back where we are at the moment. Most of all the extra stats take importance away from +ag and +st so much and make developing interesting and unique players possible

Most of the other things try to find the way between LRB4 and 6. But in this case, i think there are certainly better ways. For example reinventing the "Skill/Trait" thing from LRB4 makes way to much complexity. As i think that most of the changes are because of some skill combinations (Claw+stuff), there might be a better way. Just change 1 or 2 of the skills and it works pretty well again.

This is always something that splits peoples opinions, and it boils down to whether you liked traits or not, I loved them, and this is my biggest problem with the current rules, I do not want skills to be toned down, too many of them have already been made too vanilla in my opinion, I am happy for skills to be tiered but they should be harder to get and come at more of a cost. I also disagree that it is at all complex. It is just a couple of skills in each catagory that you can only get as a double (same as LRB4)

Using the SW together with a dice roll!? This is used on LRB4. When looking at the cost of bribes you can induce, this helps a lot. But on the other hand, this makes SW very strong again. I would prefer if the dice rolls are reduced by 1 or 2 points, so that there is a possibility to stay on the pitch but with the higher possibility of getting bribes, the SW does not become overpowered.

A few of the dice rolls were changed as you say others weren't they all have fairly good odds of being sent off as it is also remeber most teams score in turn 8 so you will usually have to pass 2 secret weapon rolls in succession, also the secret weapon players are all more expensive now. I actually like that the new weapons make you think taking bribes are more worth while, because at the moment they aren't really worth it more often that not, as said in the intro I want more tougher choices in everythying you do off the pitch

I like the idea of changing the KO-table! Although there must be a possibility to make the game a bit more unpredictable. Therefor I would not set the Blitz (which is 1 of 6 at this points) to 2 (which means 1 of 36) but to 3 or 11. So perhaps just switch with Throw A Rock. on the other hand I like High Kick and would simply change the Kick Skill to "Additionally, the coach of the receiving team is not allowed to place a player under the square the ball will land in on High Kick event."

High Kick was changde back to bad kick to make Kick off return more useful, the final version will eb posted in about 20 minutes time so you can see that
As for the others, no the kick off table should be ordered in what are the biggest game changers and blitz and pitch invasion are currently the biggest so it stands to reason that they are the least probable.

Just some thoughts at this point. But still great work to rethink the rules and try to make them better!

gan

anyway, keep your eyes peeled, final version of the two sets of rules will be postde very soon will do a poll to see which people would like to trial first

[yggdrasil]

Thanks, I would love it if you used all of the rules for a season just to see how it plays out, then feed back to me.

While I understand the reason for your request, I don't believe in that approach myself. In my view, as soon as you stop playing with the "official" ruleset and start using house rules, each group is best off making their own unique house rule set, combining whatever elements they see fit. You could argue that having a selection of fixed alternative house rule sets available for groups to choose from would be a good thing, like "Garion's rules", "Axiom's rules", "Yggdrasil's rules", etc., but I don't really think that's so great. I prefer the options to be simply "the official rules" and "our local rules".

[garion]

Rightyo been a while since I looked at this. Have done so now with almost fresh eyes and could see a few things wrong. I have made a slight change to the fouling so the odds are a lot better for the risk reward. I also re-evalutated the traits, got rid of one and brought in the other that should clearly have been there from the start. I was thinking about Galaks suggested change to stunty (tackle not working on blocks/blitzes) and while I really don't like this for stunty players i thought it does fit nicely for Snotlings, it makes sense because of their size that they are slippery little gits and hard to tackle. So I added this rule just for snotlings.

The only thing I am not sure about now is stil the horrible Pilling On rule. It is a trait, so it will be seen less, which is a good thing and claw pomb is harder still because of random mutations. also fouling will be more wide spread and more powerful so should deter it a little more, so I think I will leave PO alone for now, if it continues to cause problems in my eyes I will either remove it all together and buff RSC again, or turn it in to spearing (from 2nd ed)same rules but it counts as a foul basically.

Anyway, version 100 or something is on page 1 again