Garions Rules Finished

[garion]

On side note I'd just like to say I have been very very restrained with these rules. There are a load of other things I don’t like about CRP which I have kept which I won’t bang on about here. 
But here is something that I love and was suggested by a coach that I have an enormous amount of time for and frankly I love it and would love to include it in my rules, it is again a throw back to 2nd ed, but simplified, but the reason I haven’t included it is because I want the basics right first. Anyway here it is -

I've always thought it a bit unrealistic that BHs and SIs only miss the rest of a match and 1 match respectively.

So I have thought of a 2 part rule (new injury chart & reserves) to compensate for this.
Apo is still used in game in the same way as before. Post game works differently.

Injuries

Injuries would be longer lasting than they are now, any players with these injuries post game must do the following -

BH’s
At the end of the game roll a D6.
1-2 The player is available next game as normal.
3-4 The player will miss the next game.
5-6 The player will miss the next 2 games.

SI’s
At the end of the game roll a D6. The number you roll is the number of games your player misses. If you had any rrs left at the end of the match, you may RR this dice.

SI/Perms
Consult the doctor
If your player has regeneration or you have an apothecary you may consult him, on your players injury.
1-3 'Sorry coach, it's nasty. Nothing I can do about that'.
4-6 'Well with the proper rest and recuperation, he should be ok'.

Sorry coach, it's nasty: Treat the SI as normal. The player is rushed through physio and misses one game. However they keep the permanent stat drop or niggle. If you roll a 4-6 you can opt to ignore the physio and go down this route if you wish.

Well with the proper rest: Roll a d6 and plus 2 This is the amount of games the player will miss. When he returns, he is as fit as he was before. If you have a RR left after the game, you may use it to RR this dice.

Reserves:
With players missing more than 1 match, there is a need for a reserves/injury squad. These are for players 17-20. Players 17-20 are not considered part of your squad, and can be made up with 0-4 players of your choice.

*You may swap players in or out of your roster and reserve squad in the post match phase.
*Your roster doesn't have to have 16 players to make use of the reserve squad.
*The reserve squad doesn't follow roster limitations.

Example: Your roster has 4 Black Orcs, you can have 4 more Black Orcs on your reserve squad if you wish. However if a Blitzer was to be injured and put into the reserve squad. One of the Black Orcs cannot be put into the roster, as there are 4 already. The Black Orc removed from the reserve squad would have to be discarded.

Now there are a couple of little points I would change if this were mine and i have put them in red above.

I would possibly make that first table –

1-3 The player is available next game as normal.
4-5 The player will miss the next game.
6 The player will miss the next 2 games
Though I’m not sure, I think the current one is fine too really.

And the second part I would change to +1 day not plus 2.

But these are very very small details.
The positives of this system are plentiful.
Here are some of my favourite things about it –

I love the idea of having a difference between selection (11 on the pitch), bench (up to 5 who can fill in) and this new reserve category. What I like about this idea is that there are significant benefits to building good extra players without necessarily loading on TV, as they don't affect an individual game's performance, but do affect the long-term viability of the team.

In addition, it would be interesting to swap reserves in and out for specific matches. You'd have to make final player selection for the next matchup invisible to the opponent until both have finalized their decisions.

Want to prevent an opponent's wizard? Put your superstar blitzer on the bench and put in a rookie. Know you'll be playing against wood elves? Be sure to put in both that tackle mb and that sure hands guy and your pass block player.
Playing against dwarves? Ditch the dodgers.
Etc...

It's brilliant because it adds a whole layer of strategy to the post-match phase.
Another side benefit however a possible problem is your TV wouldn't be static. You could swap players around to alter your TV.
In fact after reading this again I think it is an amazing idea. Possibly needs a little work, but I love it.

[fanglord13]

Having read through your rules, I do agree with around 10 of the changes, but the rest is rediculous. 2nd Ed is dead and buried and a lot of it with good reason. I honestly appreciate your effort to make this ruleset, but I am so happy that we have moved away from the horror that was 2nd Ed and to suggest undoing all the work to get the rules up to CRP seems counter productive.

I am firmly in the corner of the work being done by plasmoid on NTBB as I believe the current ruleset only needs tweaking rather than an overhaul to reflect a bygone era.

[garion]

Okay? fair enough, no real contructive criticism there though? It would be interesting to see what you liked and what you didn't and why?

A few points though. For the average TT league that runs around say 15 games, these rules would make little difference than the current ones really. Neither would these rules make any big difference to resurection tourney play. In leagues there would be a far higher tactical element to fouling and it wouldn't just be a tool to use when you are already dominating the bash like it is now, and the Chaos teams would be a little more interesting, that aside there would be little difference really so don't get your point at all. The rules would make a far bigger impact to MM type online play and also perpetual leagues though.
Also none of the changes take this back to how 2nd ed was played with no turn overs, rolling bench etc.. and neither do the changes take it back to the hell that was team development and management that became horribly time consuming, even though it was richer and in a lot of ways better it was too time consuming and messy. Those points have been left back where they should have been. The nods back to 2nd Ed have been done in exactly the same way the CRP dealt with them. CRP made a few subtle nods back to 2nd ed already and they are welcome returns so in that sense I am continuing in the same way.

Firtly I would like to stress I do respect what Plasmoid is doing, hes a really good guy too and the leagues he is running are good fun. However it does not suprise me one bit that there are bits of my rules you do no like if you actually think narrowing the tiers is the direction the game should move in.
For me that would be the final nail in the coffin if the game officially went in that direction. I hate that idea, the game is not meant to be balanced, it never has been and it never should be. Also the tiers are there for good reason (which I don't want to discuss in this thread as this has been brought up many times elsewhere). So if you like BB devoid of the rich fluff it used to have then NTBB is clearly the way for you and this is one of the big problems with CRP too imo, it has already moved too far in that direction. The amazing fluff that made this game so good has lessened and frankly I would far rather play the game that is true to its roots and the fluff than one where all teams are equal and do not play as they should or perform to the level they should.

[garion]

Just to collect some of the positive feedback, there is more but i got bored copy and pasting lol –

Oo, nice work! Congrats!

Most of the way through it and there is some great modifications there... Mutations sound more fun in the generation but will be less popular.

Good effort Garion.

I like most of the changes you have suggested, except the ones to Wild animal. Keep up the good work!

note: WA change got removed

I must say that I like the ruleset, would be fun to try it in a league environment!

I would play in a League with these rules, definitely

Thanks for the link Garion.

Love the random mutaions, couple of suggestions:...

note:most of those suggestions were changed or the change to the rule was removed, hence end of quote early

I've whining about not having a chance to unroot my trees for years! Great change on the Take root skill.

Very interesting draft overall!

Man this looks really nice.

You did a good job Garion

excellent list there garion, id only have a few minor additions or changes. traits was my biggest gripe so i like a lot of that...

extra suggestions from quote removed as they are either included or just asking for even more skills to be traits

Good enough for me. I'd certainly give BB another go if those were the rules.

I hear these are going to be the new house rules for fumbbl!

Oh and Garion, nice changes mate

oh god yes. Traits made for more varied and interesting teams. sure it meant you couldn’t get a jumpup tree or a dauntless fling but i loved traits.

It was always that much more special getting a trait skill, and it made that player stand out. Now the old trait skills are 2 a penny, and players rarely are unique anymore.

like most of it, though I doubt I will get the chance to actually use these rules, it seems very good to me. I too feel the traits should be back

nice one Garion, overall I like what I see now

[fanglord13]

Wrote that in a bit of a hurry last night. Didn't mean to come across as negative or non-constructive.

I like the changes to:

- fouling and the fouling skills as I believe this needed to be fixed.
- The removal of piling on (which solves a MASSIVE problem in the current rules)
- Claw only a minus 2 to minimum 7 gives value to armour 10
- Kick off table is miles better as Blitz should occur far less frequently.
- Loved traits back in the day and am happy to see them return in some facet
- Changes to Dwarves are quite good, but if you also replace block with Juggernaut (as per NTBB) on the troll slayers then that is exactly how I see them.
- Amazons change is quite good, though I assume that the catchers also have dodge?
- Zap on the Wizard is a welcome return
- Nega trait removal is definitely welcome, given that it is a choice between that or strength (or doubles skill for that matter!)
- Stand Firm was an unbelieveably overpowered trait in the day, but a STR test is not the worst idea to curb it. Would not give the plus one though.


I love the idea behind random mutations, but don't believe it should ever return. Just need to make every mutation equally appealling and balanced.

I didn't like:

- Some star players. In particular Hthark and Count Luthor. Luthor should increase in price dramatically to have Blodge and STR 5 when you consider you are getting the extra strength over Griff for only 60k more with a couple of different skills otherwise.
- Spontaneous Combustion is rediculous
- The Chaos Gifts thing is a step too far and should just be in the mutations list to be randomised

The biggest negative here is that overall it would be more broken than the current ruleset which, though I am sure your aim is to make the game more fun, will make it less fair and even.

[garion]

- Stand Firm was an unbelieveably overpowered trait in the day, but a STR test is not the worst idea to curb it. Would not give the plus one though. Without +1 it would be truly aweful, this means a St3 player would need a 4+ to stay on their feet and a st4 player would need 3+. Thats not good enough. Jump UP gives a +2 modifiers and I was at one time thinking about that for Stand Firm, but that would possibly be too much, as i have it st3 players having to roll a 3+ is enough of a risk and st4 should get that extra value add.

I love the idea behind random mutations, but don't believe it should ever return. Just need to make every mutation equally appealling and balanced.

I didn't like:

- Some star players. In particular Hthark and Count Luthor. Luthor should increase in price dramatically to have Blodge and STR 5 when you consider you are getting the extra strength over Griff for only 60k more with a couple of different skills otherwise.
- Spontaneous Combustion is rediculous
- The Chaos Gifts thing is a step too far and should just be in the mutations list to be randomised

The biggest negative here is that overall it would be more broken than the current ruleset which, though I am sure your aim is to make the game more fun, will make it less fair and even.

put a little bit in red above. the rest below

The star player pricing is getting re-done, I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but no I will never change them away from how they are meant to be. They have always had those stats and skills and this should not change.

But you listed a load of stuff you like, which covers most of the rule changes to be honest, but I really do not understand how you can say any of these changes will make anything broken. How do you come to that conclusion and what do you base that feeling on. Because in my opinion there is literally nothing in the rule set that makes any single race too good?

spontaneous combustion serves many purposes in this rule set. It adds a risk element to muations but it also is a very good mutation for say an underworld goblin to get. What do you think about it is ridiculous? You think its too good or something?

[garion]

well. I have changed the last spelling mistake i hope

I also reviewed the star player costs and they are all still over priced. There was no need to make luthor cheaper as his cost already far exceeds his value and I just swapped one skill for the skill he is meant to have and has had since third ed. Hthark I have made a little more expensive. but only 10k more as he was already over priced.

I made Dolphar 10k more as he was already under priced, and is now at least of some use.

But as I say there is nothing wrong with any star player costs even in light of the changes to team development and they almost all exceed their true costs even after the extra 10k is added for stat increases on top of the usual price as per the star player guide lines.

[Thadrin]

While there is nothing I object to in these rules, they do feel like a step backwards.
Of course, many WANT a step back. You seem to be one of them.
I'd play these rules if my commish said we were using them, but I think the NTBB CRP+ is simpler and better.

[garion]

They are a step backwards in some ways, but then a step forwards again in a different direction. But that for me is a good thing imo. LRB4, 2nd ed etc... all had great aspects that have been removed during the dumbing down of the game, and I personally would like them back.

Yes NTBB may be simpler, but the whole concept of it is a terrible one imo. Narrowing the tiers is just wrong, the game has always had tiers and always should have teirs as they are now. Making skill tweeks focusing on balance is also wrong - when they making litterally no sense at all from a fluff perspective. Changes can be good but they MUST fit the fluff first and foremost and be fun. Now Martin if you read this, it is nothing personal, i think your a great guy but -

Take Sneaky Git change in NTBB - why would a player ever be sent to the KO box it doesnt make any sense. Fouling is illegal always has been and always willbe a sending off if caught. So why allow them back on the field? It makes no sense. You could argue i guess that they snuck on the field without the ref noticing, which alone seems a little daft, but still in the relm of possibility. But then why the heck woud babes make it easier for the players that were sent to the ko box. It makes no sense.

Take the NTTB Pile On change for example - The LRB4 version made sense, it was - if you pile on you have to try and break the Av again and you are hitting them again. CRP Po (like it or not) made sense - if you broke the armour the first time then when you Pile On you are hitting an opponent that is on the ground that is stunned so it makes sense that you get to go straight for injury, and if you didnt break av first time, then again the opponent is still awake and defending him self so it makes sense that you have to break av again.
Then take the PO in NTTB how could you possibly explain why a player would only Pile On if they have already broken the Av of a player, it makes litterally no sense at all.

Fouling change I am playing with in 3 leagues and it makes no difference, fouling is still very weak. Wizard change yeah fair enough, I'm not fussed if it is 150k or 200k. I think thats all of them?

and I wont talk about the roster changes as they are almost all wrong for their teams fluff-wise with a couple of exceptions and narrowing the tiers is something I would never want to see happen to the rules.

But anyway, thats enough about NTBB, Martin et al like that sort of thing and for those people he has done a really good job.

But for me and probably many others, the game must be about fluff and fun first and foremost. It is an RPG after all, and those changes are mostly devoid of fluff, which seemed to be the way the game started heading post lrb4 which deeply saddened me.

[Juriel]

But for me and probably many others, the game must be about fluff and fun first and foremost.

And for others, more balanced teams is more fun, because it offers you more valid options, rather than just a few.

[garion]

But for me and probably many others, the game must be about fluff and fun first and foremost.

And for others, more balanced teams is more fun, because it offers you more valid options, rather than just a few.

Yup and I get that but balance can be addressed on other ways without destroying more established rosters and without making rule changes that make no sense. My rules have addressed a number balance issues as well but it does not destroy the tier system that keep this game interesting. I can spell those things out in more detail if you like?

[spubbbba]

I’d be very wary of re-writing the rules based on fluff, particularly when it is so sparse in some cases such as the amazons. The game being fun and interesting to play with a good mix of strategy and randomness should be the top priority.

GW have changed the fluff of their games a lot over the years and the BB world is no exception. Some teams are based on outdated WHFB armies such as undead, norse or slaan whilst others are weird BB creations like pro elfs or necromantics

Things are further complicated by some of the main races having background that use elements of 2nd and 3rd edition BB and from their WHFB counterparts through the years. Even with a comprehensive background it is quite easy to take a certain passage and use that to justify pretty much anything. Even worse a of the fluff is deliberately silly and some of those “did you knows” are just cheap gags that will happily bend the established fluff to breaking point just to fit the punchline.

If we give teams very broad characteristics then it gives you plenty of wiggle room. So saying zons are from the jungle and agile doesn’t make it impossible that they would acquire some better armour for their heavy hitters. After all if pro elfs can get AV8 from a face mask I’m sure in a game involving chainsaws and bombs that a successful female team would want to update their kit from animal skulls and feathers.

[garion]

Absoultely Spubbbba I agree for the most part. But the changes I have made in my rules are all perfectly in keeping with the fluff, as are the rosters which is still of utmost importance, even though as you say you need to be carefull. All I was saying is the NTTB ones are not, the two rule changes I talked about above make absolutely no sense from a fluff perspective, you just cant explain those mechanics from a fluff perspective without them being unbelievably contrived, and the same goals could have easily been achieved in a way that would make sense. I would also like to say I am not in competition with Martin at all and his NTTB rules, he has gone one way (narrowing tiers, although some changes seem to be going even further than narrowing imo), people seem to think this would bring more variety to the game, personally I think narrowing the tiers brings far far less variety. So my goals were very different.

My goals were/are -
To make team building more about developing teams evenly instead of the 4 stars and 10 scrubs that most teams build like in crp.
To make doubles skill rolls an always take must have occasion.
To make doubles skill rolls provide greater team individuality and diversity.
To maintain the tiers as they are meant to be.
To give the stunty teams more of a chance at a mid-higher Tv after being completely screwed over by the changes to the rules (not rosters) between lrb4 and 5. The thing that really hurt them the most is PO and how fouling is terrible in CRP.
To make the bashing potential of teams more evenly spread between all the rosters instead of so heavily in favour of the CPOMB races, though still with a bigger advantage for the bash teams, and the brave mutation coaches.
To make staying prone a risky place to be instead of the safest place to be like it is in CRP.
To make taking big guys more cost effective.
To make Mutation teams more varied as they are consistently described in the fluff in all editions of the game, instead of being one of the most one dimensional,
To add more of a tactical element to fouling and to bring it back to the overall game. CRP has always felt to me like positional play has become far less important in the wake of victory via attrition alone game mechanics.
I also made the changes to my rules with BB or MM in mind and how best to stop Min-maxing etc and all the other problems that come about from that type of divisional play.
Finally - to make the game and team building fun again, with interesting skills, instead of all vanilla skills, more skill combinations that were removed for no good reason.

No one will ever agree on rule changes, but that is because some people want all the skills and teams to be vanilla so there is greater "balance". I would hate that more than anything, i want the game to about variety as it has always been albeit to a lesser extent now. I like many flavours not just vanilla.

Frankly i would even rather all skills to be random over the situation we have found our selves in now, but that is for another thread all together lol

[Thadrin]

Just for clarity: I specifically meant the CRP+ changes (the list of , not all of Martin's roster changes.

[garion]

Just for clarity: I specifically meant the CRP+ changes (the list of 8 ), not all of Martin's roster changes.

yup i get that, but as said before the main 2 just dont make sense at all fluff wise, and I'm sure they could have reached the same statistical effectiveness by doing something else that does make sense. Turning Claw even more vanilla I'm not a massive fan of either and the foul change has been tested and it makes little to no difference to the effectiveness to fouling. Its just one less assist. Wizard, yeah either way is fine.

But thats enough about that list. This thread is about my house rules