Chaos Power teams

[Darkson]

Found these online:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/81264537/Bloo ... ms-2012-V1

[Kort]

The first three seem broken, with either 6 ST4 players or ST4 and AG4. The last one is basically Dark Elves with Claw...

[zerodemon]

Hey guys. Weird to sign up here and find my rules already doing the rounds. We're in the process of playtesting. They aren't anywhere near ready.

As you can see, the Khorne team has since been changed. I had too many ST4 players on that team and Bloodletters were well overpowered. They're being pulled back a little by dumping Bloodletters and adding Psychopaths, a 0-2 player with a "lineman" profile, with the cheeky bonus of carrying a chainsaw.

The Tzeentch team is probably seeing a couple more changes on top of the ones I've already made. Pink Horrors will be reduced to ST3. These guys are a lot of fun.

The first Slaanesh team is too boring for my liking. I'll probably drop it entirely. The Slaanesh Dark Elf cult is new and mostly untested. The current consensus in our playtest group is fragile (the positionals are all very breakable) much like many elves. This team will be hard to use, possibly even Tier3.

I want you guys to be brutal. Garion has already made his opinions known elsewhere, and suggested I post here. We have an 8-man playtest team and we're dedicating our time to this right now. Any feedback is great. What do you like? What do you hate? What works and what doesn't?

It's worth noting that these teams will be putting playability and balance first. This is why I chopped out the Bloodletters. Fluff is a secondary concern, but will always be observed.

I know the temptation here is to scream rookie at me, but I've been playing Blood Bowl since I was 12, 16 years ago. I love the game and this is my HOUSE RULES contribution. It will be evolving over the next month or so in the run up to the opening of a 16 man Dungeonbowl league which will run for 6 weeks. In the aftermath of that, the team will change again to close down any other glaring flaws in the Roster Make-Up.

We play upwards of 16 games a week during playtesting (which evens out at 20ish games per playtested team over the next month.) I will get these teams in to a fit and characterful state. I would appreciate your help.

Have any of you done your own versions of these teams? Do you have other teams you'd like to see developed and playtested over the next few months? If so, send 'em my way and I'll do my best to give them the attention they deserve.

[Steam Ball]

Are those evolutions of these old Slaanesh, Khorne & Tzeentch teams or completely new?

Where is the boring team? The link only shows one with elves.

[zerodemon]

Yes, it's an evolution of the old Forgotten Chaos Teams article, dumping all the ridiculous stuff (like steeds, hounds and sorcerers) and changing a bunch of negative skills and profiles designed to make overly powerful models low cost.

Boring team is now gone. It was very similar to a standard Chaos team, though with lower armour on Chaos Warriors and the addition of daemonettes and a Spawn of Slaanesh instead of a Minotaur. It just wasn't very good if I'm honest.

The DE Cult style works well and is a mostly original combination of deadly but vulnerable players. The violent witch elves here also fit the role of runner. It will take some interesting management to build an operable team, just like it does for teams like Vampires and Ogres. Those unskilled cultists will have to be tailored to pick up the slack insofar as they can.

They kind of compare to the Dark Elf team, who are slow starters. The Blitzers on the Dark Elf team pick up a lot of slack early on, being both a shield for your unskilled players and effective armoured ball-carriers. The Slaanesh team doesn't have this option, relying instead on swift violence and tactical removal of the most threatening opponents.

Off to do some more playtesting. 4 games going on tonight.

[Chris]

Wellll...

Surely the current line up is
Pact - Chaos Undivided
Nurgle - Nurgle
Chaos - Khorne (minotaur, beastmen etc). Yes it is nice to have frenzy but you can always develope into being 'proper' khornite warriors.

So you are only looking to make 2 teams.

In general I don't like demons on the pitch. I think you should make them star players and secret weapons to limit them.

The random mutations thing is interesting. But what stops you tarting a restarting a team until you get the combo you want?

I would have though leaving the elves out of it as they already have their teams? And nothing stops you using them as elves, just seems a shame to include that in the title.

Also for Tzeentch - this team cries out to have a rostered wizard.

Thats my constructive feedback. Next can I divert your attention with some alternative ideas?

So Slaanesh. Drop the word elf, if people wish to use them as elves fair enough. The basic cultist I would suggest as 7/3/4/7 GA/MPS. Move 6 seems a little limiting given how they are associated with speed. Giving them Very Long Legs would be I think a good joke as you could have a team of 'lookers'... Sprint is also there if you want to make them even faster out of the box. For the 'specials' I would have many ideas but chief among them would be hypnotic gaze being compulsory. I would also give them extra arms to look like stand in demons.
If you wanted to be a bit off the wall giving them stunty would be quite different. The agility would be the moving about, the passing would be a reluctance to release the pleasure of having the ball and restrict the passing game a bit compared to elves and the extra damage the desire to experience pain etc. Also they would hvae to have disturbing presence. Thats my image of Slaanesh at least
0-16 Cultist 70k 7/3/4/7 Very Long Legs (har har) AG/MPS
0-4 Warrior 120k 7/3/4/8 Disturbing Presence, Extra Arms, Hypnotic Gaze AGS/PM Could be a bit off the wall and give them stunty - would that increase the cost?
RR - 70k, as of course why would you do something you didn't intend to do and enjoy?

Tzeentch
1 Wizard. Must buy him and he is your head coach (no other wizard allowed of course). Either roster him or hide him in the cost of the team and re-rolls and say he is free.
Would have a spawn. But I would give him every mutation you can get. I know that many of these will be fairly useless, but this thing is supposed to typify mutation...
Definatively have a bunch of lowly cultists. Rather than starting them with a mutation how about making them chaff, so 7/3/3/7 M/AGPS. They mill around, typically gaining mutations but little else. I.e. proper cultists!
I confese to not having a clue over the warriors. Maybe leap due to some nice feathers?
If you could make re-rolls cheap would highlight the changeable ways you face!
So if you wanted to have the head coach as a wizard the players could be something like
0-16 Cultist 50k 7/3/3/7 M/AGPS
0-4 Warriors 120k ?
No idea, maybe something like 6/4/3/8 leap AGM/SP
0-1 Spawn 150k 3/5/1/9 Loner, Decay, Really Stupid, Big Hand, Claw, Disturbing Presence, Extra Arms, Foul Appearance, Horns, Prehensile Tail, Tentacles, Two Heads, Very Long Legs S/AGP
RR 60k

[zerodemon]

Those are some pretty kooky ideas! You have a point on the Khorne team, but we're having a blast using them and the rostered chainsaw players are a laugh. The teams are first and foremost a giggle for the gaming group.

Honestly, I uhmed and ahhed over the idea of an Elf Slaanesh team, but in the end I dove right in to it, and damn if it doesn't work. The WE's are the perfect complement to the daemonettes. The Dark Elf Linemen fill out the team nicely as standard. I considered a drop in AV and an increase in MA, but the team would've become TOO fragile (even for elves.) I'm aiming for balance.

You're right in that I could drop the word elf from the title. I'm kind of happy floating in that sort-of Warhammer world that Blood Bowl occupies though, and since their used to be Dark Elf Slaanesh cults, I'm gonna stick right there. We will playtest your team ideas next weekend though. I'll give you some feedback on how it goes.

The idea of an on-pitch wizard offended me so much, I didn't consider the option of having a permanently rostered team wizard on the side-lines. We'll try that out as well.

I'm quite keen on my Horrors and Daemonettes. Both give the teams they play for a nice flavour, and there aren't many team out there that can field no-handed players in a standard line-up that aren't riding enormous lawnmowers.

Great feedback though. Lots of off the wall idea I might co-opt and try out. The idea is more of the same but a little bit different. I don't want the teams to be so gimmicky they become unappealing after all.

Thanks again.

[adhansa]

I think a good way to make teams for other Chaos powers would be to mimic the nurgle team, 0-16 linemen, 0-4 beastmen, 0-4 warriors and 0-1 bigguys. If you want to have something to compare against theese are the teams i have comed up with.

Slaanesh
0-16 Cultists 40 6 3 3 7 Thick Skull G ASPM
0-4 Beastmen 60 6 3 3 8 Horns GSM AP
0-2 Warriors 110 6 4 3 8 Side Step GS APM
0-2 Deamonettes 100 7 3 3 7 Claws, Hypnotic Gaze GA SP
Reroll 60k

Khorne
0-16 Marauders 50 6 3 3 8 GS AMP
0-4 Beastmen 70 6 3 3 8 Horns, Frenzy GSM AP
0-4 Warriors 100 5 4 2 9 Frenzy GS APM
0-1 Bloodletter 130 6 5 1 8 Loner, Wild Animal, Mighty Blow, Frenzy S GAP
Reroll 70k

Tzeentch
0-16 Pink Horror 50 5 3 3 8 Big Hands G ASP
0-4 Beastmen 70 6 3 3 8 Horns GSM AP
0-4 Warriors 110 5 4 3 9 GS APM
0-1 Flamer 140 7 3 4 8 Flamethrower, Ward, No Hands S GAP
Reroll 30k

[Chris]

My favourite idea from the above remains the chaos spawn with all the mutations though
Agree about on pitch spell caster, but the idea of a Tzeentch team with no wizard just seems wrong, hence compulsory wizard. I prefer hiding the cost in the team rather than paying seperately. But it has implications for progression as replacing players becomes harder. Would probably be a balance thing, paying sdeperately makes for a weaker starting team, combining cost helps at start but makes replacing players harder.

Well, I still remain against the word elf - would you not see slaanesh cultists as one androgenous and multi racial heaving mass? By all means stick pointy ears on the players, but the name seems somewhat predeterministic (which is a real chaos word).

The demons, fair enough. Surely though they should get secret weapon though? Not bing sent off but rather having problems staying in the material world? A bribe then keeps them on not for funding the ref but paying for an elaborate religious sacrifice!

[zerodemon]

Our playtest session last night locked down a few things that are near enough to perfect. The daemons work well (with only Blue Horrors having a significant representation of instability, having both Stunty and Decay.) The idea of giving daemons too much instability, while fluffy, firstly doesn't ring true for the Blood Bowl world and secondly makes the teams too prohibitive. They aren't carrying anything exceptionally dangerous after all.

Basing too heavily on the premise of creating the teams to be "like" the Nurgle team stunts the creative process quite heavily. Not every chaos team would (or should) bring Beastmen to the table in the same way that not every Elf team has access to Witch Elves, Assassins, Wardancers etc. I'd rather play a team that had no analogue than play a team that plays a lot like another one.

By design, the Khorne team is very bashy, the Tzeentch team is very random and fun and the Slaanesh team is very delicate. I may offer the Wizard to Tzeentch team at a reduced inducement cost, but not as a permanent fixture. The mechanic would have to be thoroughly playtested. Since we have a league starting soon, that's when we'll try it out. Inducements can only truly be playtested in a league situation after all.

We playtested flamers. Sadly, bombadiers are too powerful for inclusion in a Chaos Team (which is already good enough on the knocking people down front.) We may design a star player with this function at some point.

I see what you are trying to do with your teams. They are pretty much where we started, before realising that, while the teams were effective, they were also both too effective and a little bit boring to play with or against. Hypnotic Gaze is a little extreme in a Chaos Team, so we opted for Disturbing Presence, while No-Hands is a No-Brainer, operating as enough of a limitation to make the game more challenging.

The thing I would say about your team versions is that you'd playtest them and feel like you were playing a Chaos team you'd taken through a few games and earned some skills with. They also aren't really analogues of the Nurgle team (which is a challenge to play thanks to the flimsiness of their rotters and limited skills.) Yours have Thick Skull, Linesmen and slow but effective ball carriers variously in the "rotter slot" (a player that manages to be good at everything bad and nothing good at the same time.)

Random Mutation is a handy skill for representing the changeability of Tzeentch. Next friday sees an update to the document. Several things are changing. Now, as well as a starting Random Mutation, Tzeentch players who opt for a mutation will always roll on the random mutation table as part of that skill. The Spawn can only receive M on a Normal roll, with the doubles category containing S.

We're happy with the Khorne team (though far from done.) The limitation of Frenzy at team creation to Warriors and the Mino was a good thing, and Narrow Focus works well at curbing the Khorne teams ability to branch out beyond its natural function of hitting things. The Psychopath had the potential to be a team breaker, but is much more fitting in both play style that another Horned, Frenzy player (i.e. Bloodletter) and after 3 games with them involved, we're happy they aren't unbalancing.

The Slaanesh team needs a bit more fine-tuning, but honestly, we like the elfishness. Right now, it's more a Tier 2.5 team, which is slow to start but once skills start coming in, becomes easier to play. We'll hopefully rebalance.

[Smurf]

IIRC the old rules did not seem too bad.

I think demonic aura was too much and the other stuff was quite fun.

Tzeentch got a random event each kick off. Not so bad now with the cheap cards.
Slaanesh got a hypnoeyes for player being in TZs. Suppose the better would be Slaanesh can hypnogaze everyone in its TZ and those in the TZ all have Bonehead.
Nurgle had a 'bolt' counter of corruption, sort of wizard every turn.
Khorne had AV10 with lots of nasty skills:

Lesser Deamons:

Blue horrors, if 'killed' became 2 Pink horrors ('gobbo' stats) if both of them died so did the Blue horror I think they had big hand too(6437 > 6237 with stunty)
Crab claw girls, they had claw! (6347)
nurgle, disturbing presense and 'claw/horn' (6428)
Blood letters with Frenzy. (6439)

IIRC they were all about 130k

[zerodemon]

Yeah, my gaming group went that way a few years back before we had our first (clumsy) shot at making our own chaos teams. Those teams were nice to play against each other, but overpowered in competitive play. Fun though.

[zerodemon]

The PDF has seen an update, with more changes to come. Proposed changes are as follows.

* Remove Decay from Blue Horrors as Stunty makes them vulnerable enough.
* Any time a Tzeentch player opts to take a Mutation skill, he must roll on the Random Mutation table, and take whichever skill is rolled.
* Increase the cost of re-rolls to the Slaanesh and Tzeentch teams (70,000)

[Chris]

Still seems odd not having a wizard with a the tzeentch team always!

[mubo]

Really like the 'narrow focus' idea. It's a pretty elegant way of forcing more interesting development. In this case I might leave off PO for juggs or something, but neat concept.