NTBB Milestone!

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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plasmoid
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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by plasmoid »

More playtesting coming up
*Playtest tournament 1 is nearing completion, and pbem playtest tournament 2 is in the pipeline.
*MBBL is setting up an NTBB subdivision. It should be up by july 1st - and it's open to all comers.
*We've got one league in New Zealand
*Another league in Daventry, England
*A tiny league in Copenhagen, Denmark
*A 15 coach tournament in Italy this summer (organized by Giorgio Baltera)

If anyone else feels like giving NTBB a go, by all means let me know.
Cheers
Martin

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by gandresch »

Hi,

the changes are great but i don't see my league is ready for this yet, although i tried to establish the ideas for about 2 years now. ;)
I read carefully through the ideas and the only thing that i expect to be critical is the Sneaky Git skill. There must be a possibility for a player to be caught by the ref. If a skill enervates such a basic idea, i don't feel comfortable with it.
Therefore I suggest to change the rule somehow. My personal idea would be, to make Sneaky Git somehow like the Leader skill. So every SG player on the pitch gives you a Bribe (one per game) if necceassary.
In a past version of the ruleset, there was this Right Stuff/Tackle rule which was then attenuated to Titchy. I didn't find a hint, why this rule was trashed. Perhaps somebody could enlighten me.

gan

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by giorss »

plasmoid wrote:More playtesting coming up
...
*A 15 coach tournament in Italy this summer (organized by Giorgio Baltera)
I don't know how many players will come!!!
last year we were 7 Italians and 7 Frenchs!
it's still in progress.
this is the text of the infopack I will put soon somewhere in the space...
http://www.musine.it/cda2012eng.txt

(ATM pdf infopack is available only in Italian)


thank you Martin

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plasmoid
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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Gandresch,
sorry to hear that you haven't been able to find a league. You're welcome to join the play by email NTBB league - it isn't far off now. Play by email is ideal if you don't have the time to regularly do a game in one sitting on FUMBBL or Cyanide.

I get what you're saying about SG. But there already is a roll - and the player doesn't avoid ejection, in fact he is always sent off(!)
He then has a 4+ roll to recover per drive.
So, if he has 2 drives to recover (like potentially at the end of a half), he gets 2 4+ rolls = 75%, which, if you think about it is worse than the 84% that a bribe would give him 8)

As for the stunty thing, the change was based on theorybowl. Quite a few coaches were worried that "untouchable" gobbos would be too good (more in a frustrating way than in a powerful way).
Honestly, had this been straight playtest for LRB7, I would have ignored the theorybowl and let playtesting decide.
But NTBB are just house rules, so I need people to like the rules in order to get them playtested in the first place.
So I caved.
The ability moved to titchy.
And Halflings and Gobbos have been compensated in other ways.

I hope to see you in the pbem NTBBL :D
Cheers
Martin

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by gandresch »

Hi Martin,

I play in a league, sorry if I expressed that somehoe unclear. I just couldn't convince the coaches to test the rules, so we stick to the "default" ones.
The problem about SG in my eyes is the combination with inducements like Babes or this Sponge card (don't know the name). Usually people with Secret Weapons in the team have induced them and so are able to induce Babes, too, or they play Gobos (or Dwarves). Gobos won't get to such a high TV so that they are able to induce the Babes or buy cards.
If we now do the math:
0 Babes:
50% first roll, 75% 2nd roll, 87,5% 3rd roll...

but 1 Babe:
66% first roll, 88,9% 2nd roll, 96% 3rd roll...

and 2 Babes:
83,3% first roll, >96% 2nd roll

Addition: As a player with SG never is caught by the ref when not breaking the AV, you can always suggest having achieved an AV break in theory. Roughly calculated (same chances on AV and Injury roll to be caught by ref and not regarding the actual AV) you have about 25/36 not to be caught during a foul. So in average about every second successful foul you should be caught by the ref, having a chance of 1/6 (+DP) to injure the player. So for the ability to be caught by about 50% you have the possibility to make a CAS in about 1/3 (which increases to at most 52% when having DP, too) of the situations. After having been caught you are able to come back for the next drive with a very high probability (see calculation above) and that's what makes me think. The rate of making CAS is even as high as it was with CPOMB before IF you break the armor. But if you don't, nothing will happen at all.

As you have multiple ways to get these Babes (via card or directly induced) about 2 of these guys are enough to play all game and foul every drive. If you have more, then you come closed to foul every turn.

Now the main thing:
If these were only Gobos, i wouldn't care, because Gobos are fun and I don't think, that such a thing would change all too much. But as e.g. elves are able to take these skills by default and those teams don't need to have that much high skilled players to be competitive, I would think again about other options. That is the reason why I think, it's too good.

Greets,
gan

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Gan,
glad to hear you have a league. You're still welcome to join the play by email league.

Main point about SG: The new ability is not in addition to the old one. It replaces the old one.
So you get sent off exactly like a normal player - meaning he'll not be fouling every turn, and you will lose a player from the pitch.
He just has the ability to come back.
But if you want to commit a doubles and a singles roll to fouling, then you can expact your fairly expensive play to be off-pitch for quite a bit of the game.

Better?

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by gandresch »

Hi,

I would give it a try! It's a pity that it is not possible to test all the new rules on FUMBBL or cyanide. CPOMB only becomes a problem, if you have lots and lots of teams and coaches, when it is easy to retire teams and build them up again in a short amount of time. These optmized teams may be a problem. But without the "not being caught for not breaking AV" it sounds better for now.

Thank you for the extensive answers!
gan

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by garion »

plasmoid wrote:Hi Gan,
glad to hear you have a league. You're still welcome to join the play by email league.

Main point about SG: The new ability is not in addition to the old one. It replaces the old one.
So you get sent off exactly like a normal player - meaning he'll not be fouling every turn, and you will lose a player from the pitch.
He just has the ability to come back.
But if you want to commit a doubles and a singles roll to fouling, then you can expact your fairly expensive play to be off-pitch for quite a bit of the game.

Better?
it is possible to test them, well almost any way. Some guys are just in the process of testing them in fumbbls testing division to make sure they are bug free and they all work fine.

so far we have all the ntbb stuff from the first draft, this is all implemented and being used, I have run two leagues with these, 1 is just finishing the second season (pro elves and khemri dominating so far) the other has just started the second season (Undead and chaos dwarf leading the way).

All the stuff from NTBB is currently being tested and should be usuable on fumbbl in the L division in the next month or so.

There are also a number of other optional rules such as SW rolls and other PO nerfs etc... that you could choose, and once the final two skills are implemented Kalimar said he might code some more optional rules for L.

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by dzigany »

I like the NTBB rules at large!

The biggest problem with the current state of BB, in my view, is the teams that have no positional players, only brute force. In my opinion all teams should have at least a few of the basic positions, Lineman, Thrower, Catcher, Blocker, Blitzer. When bashy teams have no alternative, because they have no way to handle the ball, all that remains for them to do is to bash. And to me, there's nothing more boring than playing against a coach whose only tactic is to beat your players to pulp and not even try to score. And that's the only viable tactic for some of these "new" bashy teams.

So, make human teams better and remove or overhaul some of the bashiest teams (Chaos, Nurgle, Khemri, Lizardmen come to mind).

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by spubbbba »

I really don’t count Lizardmen as a bash team, they need skills like guard and break tackle to be effective so will struggle to make a pure bash team. Of all the teams added since Deathzone I’d say they are easily the best and are truly unique.

Both Chaos and nurgle have the option of making more mobile ball handling teams by taking skills like sure hands, extra arms and 2 heads. In fact Chaos are on average faster and more agile than most other bashy teams such as dwarfs or Orcs. It’s just that the bash skills are more TV efficient and lots of players like the bloodthirsty fluff of chaos so chose to build them that way.

Khemri just plain suck, in lrb4 and 5 with all AG2 or less and low speed they had no other option but beating up the other team. Now they can’t even do that very well since the mummies were replaced with vastly inferior guardians and fouling got battered to death with the nerf bat.

I know a lot of players think that a high scoring 4-3 game is more interesting than a 2-1 grind vs agility match, but in my experience elfball scorefests tend to be rather dull and more about luck. If both coaches just try and score as quickly as possible it tends to come down to who runs out of re-rolls first or rolls the most snakes.

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by MattDakka »

spubbbba wrote: Khemri just plain suck, in lrb4 and 5 with all AG2 or less and low speed they had no other option but beating up the other team. Now they can’t even do that very well since the mummies were replaced with vastly inferior guardians and fouling got battered to death with the nerf bat.
I believed Khemri teams sucked too, but I changed my mind after seeing their BlackBox win rate : http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=blackbox.
I guess they suck in private leagues, but not in bash-oriented perpetual leagues.

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Dzigany,
I'm glad you (mostly) like the NTBB rules. Yay :D

As for the bashers, I don't really agree that it's their only option. Currently straight bash is a bit too good for my liking, and this may make some coaches play that way - but "bashy" teams have other options than playing like a headless chicken.
2-1 grind with Wall of Guard (tm) can be quite effective, and usually requires good thinking/positioning.

I agree with Spubbbba that shoot-outs can also be quite boring. Especially with developed teams. What I do like about shoot-outs is that it allows the defense a chance to turn the game around with a good play. Shoot-out with OTS on both sides is just terrible. So I like it when both sides have a chance. Similarly, a 2-1 grind where one team gets smashed up early, and can do little else than ready stuns and move the turn marker are also terrible.

But, bottom line, I think with an (NTBB) nerf to Piling On and Claw, heavy teams will still have lots of options. They'll just require a bit more thinking :D
Cheers
Martin

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NTBB Milestone!

Post by dzigany »

I guess the problem is that bashy teams tend to be chosen by coaches not very interested in making plays and only like the maiming part of BB.

As for the Lizardmen, I don't count them as bashy either, but just think they don't belong.

I guess I'm just grumpy because some of the feel from 2nd Ed where all teams had throwers, catchers, blitzers and linemen is gone. Where all teams were just that. Teams. Not just a bunch of brutes/warriors.

Working on some house rules myself and will incorporate much of the NTBB stuff. With my own twist of course ;)

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by spubbbba »

I’m not entirely convinced about the Blackbox stats, but need to look into them in detail. Khemri are not a massively popular team and the number of games has dropped considerably since went crp. It would only take a couple of good and active coaches to seriously skew the stats. Also is a rather strange environment so I could see khemri having some advantages being the only all regen team, with cheap av7 fodder. Plus 4 ST5 guys is hard to overcome at low TV for teams that lack guard and block.

A lot of coaches choose bashy teams not to kill but to avoid being killed themselves. Many like to see the team develop and it can be dispiriting having to continually rebuild as a wood elf player even if you are winning a lot. If given the choice many coaches would pick losing 4-0 but getting some cas and taking no damage than winning 4-0 and losing several players especially if they are long time faves.

That is why nerfing just claw would be a bad idea as the killer chaos players would just move back to dwarfs and orcs like they did with lrb4. In fact those teams would be even nastier with fouling being massively weaker.

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Re: NTBB Milestone!

Post by plasmoid »

True.
I don't know whether that last bit was an NTBB comment, but just to make it clear: NTBB not only nerfs claw, but also pion, while buffing fouling - oh, and nerfing both dwarfs and orcs directly.

Cheers
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