NTBB Milestone!

[Darkson]

I'm confused (nothing unusual there!) - I thought the SG on Plasmoids list was in addition to the CRP SG? Did I miss somewhere where it was said it's a replacement?

[Darkson]

@Garion - why would you think they'd roll twice? They don' t now, and I can't see anything on Martin's list to indicate a change in that direction.

[garion]

@Garion - why would you think they'd roll twice? They don' t now, and I can't see anything on Martin's list to indicate a change in that direction.

Yup I believe the sneaky git change replaces the existing one, but i may have that wrong.

They would roll for Ko twice because in that example they got sent off for a foul with the chainsaw and then would they not get sent off for using a secret weapon as well? Or would they skip that part because they have already been sent to the Ko box?

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion and Darkson,
yep - the new SG effect replaces the old one completely. I'll do a proper rewrite in an hour or so
And you can only get sent off once - so currently you don't need 2 bribes for a fouling SW.

I would guess 68.8/37.9[4.5] - CRP, version 3: 68.9/48.2[8.0] LRB3, version 2: 52.2/28.7[3.5] NTBB.
Unless you were counting Claw RSC in here as well from lrb4, but you didnt say that

Almost spot on. Version 3 is actually LRB 4 with FangPOMB. FangClawPOMB would be even worse! The Death-spike is because of the old stunty rule. NTBB version shaves (almost) 10 percentiles off the cas' and even more off the KO+, so I consider that quite a buff to the stunty sides

I certainly wouldn't take your new sneaky git on anyone.

That's your prerogative
But based on feedback, others would. I've had way more verdicts of 'strong' than 'weak'.
I think it's good for a number of things, but I'll skip making a list.

I know it would be 'cleaner' to just go with a 4+. It would also be wordier. I thought it clever to use a mechanic that people already know. And I like the in-game effect of combining with Babes. Makes it an even more interesting choice for gobbos and flings. And also in a way gives bashy sides a 50K inducement - currently only squishy teams have that luxury.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,
I'm glad you like the rules. You're in good company
I consider the rules almost locked in, but I'll happily explain a few bits and pieces.

3 looks good too but I liked the fouling guard effect as well.

I honestly did too. But in reality my playtesters couldn't be bothered with it, so we went looking for an alternative.

But do like the idea that teams can’t amass a huge amount of money with no detriment.

Yup. The intent was for CRP to max out teams around 220TV. When JJ vetoed the Bank rule, he allowed (especially the bashy) teams to amass cash and venture way above that.

Goblins - I would like something to keep the secret weapons on the pitch more, maybe give them the new sneaky git in place of 3rd troll?

I think the availability of SG for the SWs will be a nice boost. Heck, the bombardier will now have a skill worth taking
This also sort of deals with the gobbo double-whammy, where you first face an 8 turn grind, and are then forced to field your weapons on a 1-turn drive.

Ogres – I like this as it is not a big change.

I actually think this boost is bigger than it looks! I think these might breach bottom of tier 1. But hey - after all the ogre team didn't use to be tier 3 in the past.

Halflings not keen on AG4 but can’t think of a better alternative.

Halflings are tricky. I tried Dryads. I tried an extra Chef. Ended up with some AG4. At least it's fluff based. And different

tend to agree with Galak about human blitzers being 80K too as they are good players but tend to die a lot.

I probably would have, if I hadn't bumped orc blitzers to 90K. Humans at 90K and orcs at 80K was just wrong.

I think this is the most interesting Tomb Guardians I’ve seen and might make khemri a bit more fun to play.

Yay! Shambling death FTW.

Tier 0
Agree with all them except that I want you to change zons more and get rid of flat 6337 stats.

I honestly do too.
But - and it's gonna sound a bit hollow - I put some restraints on myself, to stop these rules from getting too.. ahem.. exotic.
Also, creating a brand new amazon roster is a big fat can of worms. I think I'd end up pleasing no-one all the same. Having seen 30 amazon rosters discussed, and none getting any backing, I'll stick with the simple.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
you wanted to move discussion to this thread. No problem.
Just 2 crossover replies from the big red page7 post your wrote in your Garions Rules thread:

Yes something else I am totally against, making skills more equal all skills equal = boring game. Its like making all cards in magic equal. It would completely suck, I have specifically made skills better to make more skill interesting, like the old stand firm was (except without making it too good)

I genuinely disagree with the thought that balanced equal boring. Because balanced does not mean similar.
Balanced just means that all of the options are equally viable skill choices (not that they'll be doing the same thing, or be equally strong in any given in-game situation).
For example, CDs and Lizardmen may well be roughly equally strong teams. That won't make a game between them boring.

In the same vein buffing Diving Catch to be a more viable option didn't make it nor plain Catch skill any more boring.
And creating Wrestle to help weaken Block did not make Block or the game in general more boring.
Finally, realizing that the old(est) +2 AND +2 DP was over the top, making it +2 OR +2 didn't make the game more boring either. It made it playable.

I do agree that balanced isn't best attained by just nerfing stuff. I think balance should be worked from both sides. Preferably with more buffs than nerfs. But in extreme cases, something sticking out like a sore thumb needs to be hammerede down for the good of the game.

I do not want Claw to becopme vanilla, I think you have taken it too far the other way now.

Eh? I changed almost nothing.
Considering the endless number of whine-posts about Claw, I think a small nerf is in order. I think it is certainly a common perception that Claw is a bit much. (Didn't you use to write prolificly on the subject?)
But consider: Claw as a single skill is completely unchanged.
As a combo skill, it works 100% with PiOn (though PiOn is in itself changed).
And it works with Mighty Blow on the injury roll still. The only thing it can no longer do is combine with MB on the armor roll.
I have a hard time thinking of a smaller nerf.

Finally, on mutations:

I dont think it will, those teams might take claw and tentacles now, but they will not look beyond that because the others all stink

Well, each skill category has its bread & butter skills. I think that can't be changed without a massive overhaul.
I agree that Claw is king, (and will still get taken quite a bit post-nerf!)
I also see Horns, Big Hand, Extra Arms and Two Heads get play on various teams.
I think Dist.P and FAppr could be merged.
I think Prehensile Tail could de with a small boost.
And Very Long Legs could do with a big one.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

I would guess 68.8/37.9[4.5] - CRP, version 3: 68.9/48.2[8.0] LRB3, version 2: 52.2/28.7[3.5] NTBB.
Unless you were counting Claw RSC in here as well from lrb4, but you didnt say that

Almost spot on. Version 3 is actually LRB 4 with FangPOMB. FangClawPOMB would be even worse! The Death-spike is because of the old stunty rule. NTBB version shaves (almost) 10 percentiles off the cas' and even more off the KO+, so I consider that quite a buff to the stunty sides

Well we will see next season if anyone bothers with sneaky git i guess, but it would suprise me if people found it of any use other than on secret weapon players only. Which as said could be handled with secret weapon rolls better anyway.

Yeah i thought the one i said was LRB3 might have been 4. But as far as i can remeber Fang couldnt be used with MB that was not possible, neither could Claw. Also comparing Fang or RSC as I call it to the new combo is daft because RSC was a trait and to get Claw with it another trait the odds were very very slim, also no one took PO ever except on the very rare big guy back then. Finally you could only get RSC on two teams back then, so it isnt really comparible. I only ever faced that combo once with flings in this game - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3012853 though they had claw RSC block tackle and not PO because as i said no one bothered with it.

So although that stats look tough in reality in LRB4 the main fear for stunty players was facing opponents with MB and Tackle and it never got worse than that. This combo which was plentiful and more than enough to make games a walk over most of the time, unless you could foul these players early in the match. I still think PO is just far too much against stunties, they are already very easy to hurt with just MB tackle and Block. I guess i will always think fouling was the fairest bash system there ever was or ever will be, it was also a system which benefitted stunty teams a little because they always had superior numbers so opponents were generally afriad of starting a foul war with them.

[garion]

I do not want Claw to becopme vanilla, I think you have taken it too far the other way now.

Eh? I changed almost nothing.
Considering the endless number of whine-posts about Claw, I think a small nerf is in order. I think it is certainly a common perception that Claw is a bit much. (Didn't you use to write prolificly on the subject?)

No I didn't I wrote a lot about Pilling On. I have always said the change to Claw was a great piece of game design, although I felt it should still be a Trait, and also felt Chaos dwarves should not get access to mutations unless they are random, but they are different issues.

But yes, make the other mutations better. that would be a good thing to do imo.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
you're right that comparing editions is a bit tricky.
But certainly the situation for stunties will be a lot better than it is now.

The LRB4 stats are for Just FangPOMB. And the Fang MB didn't stack, but you could use MB on armor and still Fang on the injury. I think requiring doubles is a lot less of a deal when you don't need 2 doubles. Any developed team would have lots of players with 1 doubles roll. Admittedly, DP was a big deterrent. But especially for stunties with only doubless access to DP the fouling war was not that rosy. Sure, stunties had a deep bench. So did everyone else (because the handicap system was worthless). I believe lots of teams carried 2 1-skill DP linemen for almost no Team Rating cost.
Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Hi Garion,
you're right that comparing editions is a bit tricky.
But certainly the situation for stunties will be a lot better than it is now.

Yup I agree with you there. It is certainly better than CRP even without the roster changes.

But it is not better than it was LRB4 those stats do not tell the truth in that respect. LRB4 stunties were far far better off then than they will be with these rule changes. Now you can have CPOMb on 4 or even more players in a team with ease. MB RSC was a killer but you would almost never see it on more than one player and stunty teams would have a powerful skill with one double to counter it very effectively.

I am in no way saying lrb4 fouling was perfect, because it still had some minor problems-
1, skill on its own was uber powerful. (solve this by splitting it in to two skills which is 40 Tv in todays money)
2, The fouling at the first and last turn of the half was a bit daft really. (this can be solved in the way I have addressed the issue in my rules, with blatent fouling and sneaky fouling a nice throw back to 2nd ed and combined with the eye adds great tactical usage to the action, but I get you want to keep things as close to CRaP as possible, so because of that you are stuck with just trying to make PO worse.)

I just think that Pile On has been a stupid rule in every edition except 2nd ed and LRB4. 2nd ed because it was a foul "spearing". and LRB4 because no one ever took it.

Now if you take the game back to lrb4 even without the lrb4 fouling then that is a better starting point for stunties, where they actually stood a chance against any team (although still a slim chance) other than dwarves and cds. give them the boost of inducements for flings (because they lost their good chef) and secret weapons for goblins (because their roster was stupidly dull) and you have reasonable bottom tier teams instead of stupidly bad one like CRaP. That way you just don't need to roster changes like a third troll or ag4 flings, you do not need to disrupt the established rosters.

But yeah, as you say it is still better than what we have now but I still dont think you will get the stunty boost you are looking for while PO is anything but RR av only. Or until it just doesnt exist.

[Mossman]

My comments on NTBB:

Don't get me wrong - I don't want all teams to be equal. Heck, they can't be truly equal. What I want is for teams to suck or shine by a narrower margin.

I only agree a bit on this design goal. I do like the idea of narrowing the tiers a little bit but first of all they shouldn't be narrowed to much and secondly I don't think it has a high priority and therefore teams shouldn't be narrowed at the expense of other valued things like fluff or gameplay.

The Goblin team has been gifted with a 3rd troll - that will make it a lot harder to contain the trolls and hunt down the Goblins. Sounds scary, but playtest results have been good. They also got a 10K discount on rerolls.

I don't like 10k discount on re-rolls fluff wise. I don't like a 3rd troll because it's a goblin team and not a troll team.

However I'm sure there are other ways to improve goblins a bit. Perhaps instead of getting ejected automatically for a secret weapon you should make a roll instead to determine whether the player is ejected or not? Perhaps they could be given 0-2 chainsaws instead of 0-1? Perhaps they could be given an entirely new kind of secret weapon? Perhaps their secret weapons could be improved a little bit? I think improving chainsaw is a very good idea to both improve the goblin team but also to improve inducements against elves because right now the inducement system works in favor of elf teams.

The Ogre team is punching way below it's weight - and snots stink. 10K off the ogres and 10K off the rerolls will give them a better starting team and a TV more true to their ability. Snotlings have also been buffed in 3 ways: MA+, AV+ and Titchy prevents opponents from using Tackle against them on the block dice.

Yes, the ogre team definitiately needs a buff. I like 10k off the ogres and 10k off the re-rolls.

I don't like +MA and +AV to snots and the reason for that is THEY ARE SNOTS. Giving snots +ma and +av is a bad idea fluff wise and it will also make snots a less unique unit which I think is a bad idea. Variation among units is good. However I do like the change to Titchy very much (and I'm also very glad that the same change isn't applied to Right Stuff any longer).

Instead of giving snots +MA and +AV why not just reduce the cost of ogres even further down to 120k? That was the cost in LRB4 and worked fine there. The ogre in the human team could also have its cost reduced to 120 to make Humans better.

Also snots could have their cost reduced from 20k to 10k. That is actually what they should cost template wise and it is also a good idea fluff wise.

The rotund little Halflings were the hardest to get right. I've considered allied positions and an extra Chef - because what Halfling positional could make a real difference? AG4 could - and Halflings were unusually agile in the fluff. So - the team has been split into linemen (5237) and catchers (5246).

I like this a lot but giving them even more positionals is an idea I like even better.

Halflings is the only good team and the only intelligent team that lack positionals. Why is that so? They are intelligent enough to specialize and therefore they should have positionals.

By giving halflings positionals they will become much more fun to play, they will become more varied from goblins, and it will narrow the tiers.

Therefore they should be given some positionals. Here is a quick idea:

Halfling Lineman: 5236 - dodge, stunty, right stuff - A - 30k
Halfling Thrower: 5236 - dodge, stunty, right stuff, pass, sure hands - AP - 40k
Halfling Blitzer: 5237 - dodge, stunty, right stuff, block - GA - 50k
Halfling Catcher: 5246 - dodge, stunty, right stuff, catch - A - 50k

(the reason the positionals are underpriced template wise relatively the price of the linemen is because the linemen are overpriced in the first place relatively the price of linemen in other teams. For example halflings have both one less movement and one less armor than goblins but only cost 10k less. With one less movement and one less armor they SHOULD cost 20k less. Perhaps the price of halfling linemen should therefore be reduced to 20k instead. And for the same reason the price of snotlings should be reduced to 10k since they are also overpriced at the moment template wise. A change like that would also buff the two teams which is a good thing. However I'm not sure I like 20k halflings fluff wise and therefore they should perhaps continue to cost 30k. Their positionals however should have the correct pricing.)

The Vampire team gets Thick Skull on the thralls - making the team slightly less likely to self destruct. In buffing the thralls I rejected a classic 6338 statline because it would have to be 50K, and that wouldn't be a buff. Besides, the human species seem to be 6337 + skill, so it fits the template just fine.

I don't like this fluff wise because humans don't really have thick skulls. I also think this buff to the vampire team is a little bit to strong because they arent that bad at the moment.

Why not incorporate a thick skull effect into the Blood Lust skill instead? Blood lust already treats all injuries as BH so a change to also treat eight on injury rolls as stuns instead of knock outs is a pretty small alteration to the skill.

The Underworld team just got a 10K discount on the rerolls.

I don't like this fluff wise.

The Human team gets 10K off the ogre, but the Human Catcher also gets an AV increase for free. This will make him the toughest catcher in the game, which is only fitting because he sure ain't the most reliable. This should stop him from being too much of a target and thus more likely to see play.

Very good changes, but like I talked about earlier I think the price of the ogre should be reduced even further by 20k instead instead of 10k. An ogre will then cost 120k which is the same price as in lrb4.

The Khemri BlitzRas and ThroRas are overpriced because the team used to be very powerful. It no longer is, so they gain Thick Skull, to better match both their Linemen and their Price Tag. Tomb Guardians exchange the no-fun Decay for a basic AV8, and gain Break Tackle for an additional 10K - which should make the team rather more interesting to play.

Very good changes.

Not 100% sure I like the break tackle thing though, I'm pretty neutral to that.

The Dwarf Slayers trade Block for Juggernaut - after all they're suicidal! Having all their AV8 players start blockless will make dwarfs more vulnerable.

I'm pretty neutral to this change. The only thing I have against it is that if a change isn't important enough then I think you should stay with tradition.

I don't think removing Block from Slayers will nerf dwarfs at low TV much in short term tournaments because if you want to perform good at low TV you can just skip the slayer and buy a longbeard instead which is about equally good.

The Wood Elf Wardancers trade Dodge for Fend. This most likely will push Strip Ball back a bit on the development curve, giving other teams some time to respond.

I definitiately don't like this one because of traditional reasons and because I think the team will become much more boring to play. Wardancers SHOULD be that cool blodge, leap, best-player-of-the-game type of player that it has always been. If something should be changed for Wardancers it is Block so that they can pick Wrestle later without overlapping block. So perhaps Block should be traded for Fend but definitiately not Dodge.

I also don't think wood elves is performing that well on low TV that any change is needed for this reason. In blackbox their win percentage at 0-1200 TV is 52,02% which isn't that good.

The Orc team is not open to an obvious skill swap, so instead the Blitzers will be priced more fairly at 90K.

Very good change.

The Undead Mummies trade Mighty Blow for Grab. Their long term boost is access to G-skills. They actually used to have this, as they aren't big guys. This is likely to mean Block for developed Mummies, though they may want Mighty Blow and Guard first. And first skill-up will take longer to acquire without Mighty Blow. Also note that Grab stops them from taking Frenzy.

Very good change giving G-access back to mummies again.

I'm neutral to trading Mighty Blow for Grab on mummies. It's a good way to nerf UD at low TV. But is it good fluff? And is it important enough that it's worth changing a traditional unit? Also mummies will skill up a lot slower without MB which is a big disadvantage to undead in leagues when their mummies die. Do they really deserve that nerf?

The Amazon Blitzers trade Block for Wrestle. Surely useful, though not is great as the power of Blodge. To strengthen them in long term play, all Amazon gain access to A-skills - and to prevent the Catchers from becoming redundant, I've given them Diving Catch for free. A-access should keep the Amazons deadly with the use of mainly Side Step and Jump Up.

I like Wrestle instead of Block on blitzers. Amazons have always been a problematic team and therefore fitting changes to it is always welcome.

I do not like giving amazons A-access however. It's one of the worst ideas I've heard of. Amazons are not elves and thus they should not have A-acces on the entire team. It's a very bad idea fluff wise. I also fear amazons will become broken at high TV with this change. Amazons already perform good enough on high TV. Sure, they are one of the weaker teams on high TV and perhaps they deserve a small buff but definitiately not as big as giving the entire team A-access.

1a. Piling On: Piling On can only be used to reroll the injury roll.
1b. Claw: Claw works on a roll of 8 or more before modification.

Very good changes. I especially like that you have nerfed Claw too since just Claw + MB is to powerful against av9 at the moment.

I do think however it's possible to nerf those skills in even better ways than this, but your suggestion is definitiately one of the best I've seen so far.

Perhaps it's better if Piling On is used to re-roll the armor roll instead of the injury roll?

2. Fouling: A generic +1 modifier now applies to the armor roll when fouling.

Very good change.

But since I think fouling should be improved even more I think argue the call should be returned also.

3. Sneaky Git: When a Sneaky Git is sent off by the Referee (including for carrying a Secret Weapon) he is sent to the K.O. box of the dug-out, and may recover in the normal manner.

This change is either brilliant or very bad. I more suspect it's very bad and therefore I'm very much against it. I believe it will make fouling WAY to good, especially when combined with bloodweisers. The only thing I like about this is that it will be possible for secret weapons to come back. But that can be fixed in another way by not letting secret weapons get ejected automatically and instead make a roll for them like it was in lrb4.

A better way to buff Sneaky Git is to let it be as it is right now but also add +1 to the AV roll. This modifier is not stackable with DP on the injury roll so together with DP it is +1 to armor AND +1 to injury. With just DP it is +1 to armor OR +1 to injury. With just Sneaky Git it is just +1 to armor.

4. Bank: A coach may stash up to 100K cash in his Bank at the end of the post game sequence (or when creating his team). This cash is unavailable until the next post game sequence - where it is immediately moved back into the treasury, (and can be affected by Spiralling Expenses). Cash in the Bank does not count towards TV, but cash in the treasury does.

Bank rule is of course a very good rule to stop people from collecting millions of money at low TV and then use it at high TV where money is supposed to be a problem. But I think the limit of 100K is a bit low. Why not let teams stash up 200K instead?

5. Spiralling Expenses: Standard Spiralling Expenses should be set at a starting point of 180, with steps of 10.

Slightly harsher Spiralling Expense settings should help bring down the cap a bit.

Bad change. Cap shouldn't be lowered.

The SE levels are entirely optional anyway, but any league commissioner changing them to something higher should know that he is making things easier on the big basher teams.

You are helping elves more than you are helping big basher teams by setting a high cap. Right now it's pretty much impossible to get more than 11 players with elves at high TV in scheduled leagues thanks to spiralling expenses. With a higher cap elves can finally afford some reserves which I think they should be able too. I play pro elves in a scheduled league and I constantly play with only 7-10 players and the rest journeymen thanks to spiralling expenses. In lrb4 it was possible to have 12-14 players with pro elves in schedules leagues which was much more fun.

7. Wizards: Wizard price increased to 200K

Very good change. But I wonder if it's enough on high TV.



Overall I like NTBB much more than CRP.

[plasmoid]

Hi Mossman,
sorry for the delayed reply.
As you may know, the rules are locked down for 2012, so I won't be making any changes for the foreseeable future.
But I'll be happy to explain why I did it the way I did all the same.

Overall I like NTBB much more than CRP.

Glad to hear it, because your list didn't quite read like that

OK. Teams first:
Gobbos: I think a team with 3 trolls and potentially 13 gobbos can safely be called a gobbo team. I avoided more secret weapons, because send-offs are already losing gobbos a lot of games.
Ogres: I think a 6136 statline is spectacularly unique. They'll still be squishier than a halfling (lineman) - and in 2nd ed. their top speed was the same as that of a human linemen, so it isn't totally off the mark.

Halflings:

I'm glad you like the idea. It was basic premise of NTBB to do simple fixes, so multiple new positionals could not be part of NTBB.
Vampires:Humans are 6337 Block, 6337 dodge and 6337 AV+ - so they could be 6337 Thick Skull. The Bloodlust idea is nice(!) but I'd love to isolate the roster changes to the actual rosters where possible.

Dwarfs:

Based on the limited playtesting, I don't think anyone will be skipping the slayers. They're still good - just not as good as before.
WoodElfs:I'm personally not sure I've found the optimum solution for WElfs, but I did poll on the issue in the past, and this is what I got. I quite like your idea(!), but it is at least worth considering that 0 block skills is likely to drain a lot of rerolls for a starting team.
Undead:Grab may be a bit weak on the fluff - but I do think that the image of a mummy grabbing and pinning his hapless victim works OK. Either way, I think Grab is more interesting than generic Mighty Blow.

Amazons: They may not be elfs, but they're girls . I'm not a big amazon coach, so I've consulted others on this, and the response was that in somewhat late development Amazons aren't just weak - they're terrible. So taking that and the loss of block, I think they needed something substantial.

Secondly - Rules:
Sneaky Git: So far it has gotten a very good reception (with a few more coaches saying 'too weak' than 'too strong'. I think what balances it is that your player still gets sent off.
Coincidentally, you mentioned that the inducement system favors elf teams. Well, now bashy teams too can use the 50K Bloodweiser Babe to recover their Sneaky Gits. OooOoh

Bank:Please remember, you always get your winnings on top of your Bank - and you can keep more cash in the treasury. So, at the cost of 5 TV, you'll be carrying just around 200K

SE:Please note that the change doesn't really kick in until 210TV. And the BBRC was originally shooting for a soft cap around 220TV. I do think that with TV210-220, an elf team could carry more than 11 players, especially now that bash has been reduced.

Thanks for your input
Martin

[legowarrior]

When it comes to the Halflings, I'd be help with just a few basic skills an skill access on some players that are hard to get.
A Halfling Runner that starts with Sure Hands and Pass Access or 2 Halfling "blitzers" with Block and Strength Access. It would just be nice to actual have a Halfling Roster instead of Halflings and Treeman.

I think the 4 agility Halflings are an interesting choice, but once you start down the road of Halflings with positionals, there are other choices that could be made.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm with Mossman, but instead of GA access on the Blitzers, I'd like AS.

[spubbbba]

Giving Halfling strength access just seems wrong to me, I could maybe see a couple of positionals with general access instead.

Halfling Blitzers could always get some or all of G access, +MA or +AV.

I quite like the idea of throwers/runners with sure hands or extra MA too. Plus catchers with catch and MA 6 or even 7.

[legowarrior]

But General Access, with Block and Dauntless is way too powerful on a stunty, while Strength has fewer skills that can be taken advantage of the same way. Besides, Halflings with Guard and Stand Firm would be way fun!