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 Post subject: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Just a thread for me to add my occansional random ramblings for what I'd add (or take away) if I was to finally make our house-rules league our only league. We used to have an LRB ARBBL based on a combo of LRB4 and 5, but I seem to have lost it in a HD death, and no-one seems to have a copy.

This list will expand/cpntract when I recall think if things I want to add (and I'm not above stealing others ideas :wink: ) or remove.
In no way do I expect this to appeal to anyone, let alone everyone.

So...

Rosters:

Khemri: Blitzers and Throwers get Thick Skull free, Throwers gain NOS for 10K, 0-2 Mummies (as per Undead), 0-2 Tomb Guardians 4/4/1/8 Break Tackle (cost to be settled) GS/AP, 0-2 Skellie Catcher 6/3/2/7 Catch, NOS 60K-ish (NO Thick Skull) GA/SP

Goblins: 0-4 Secret Weapon position - each SW can be taken 0-2 times (so you could have 2 B&C and 2 Chainsaws, but no Bomber for example). 0-3 on-roster Bribes

Dwarfs: Linemen lose Tackle, Blitzers gain Tackle - costs to be decided, as 60K seems a little cheap for the new lineman.

Ogres: Ogres cost reduced by 10K, Snots MA6 for free

Humans: Catcher AV8, Blitzer -10k cost, Big Guy option becomes 0-1 Ogre (at -10K cost) or 0-1 Minotaur

Chaos: BG option 0-1 Mino OR 0-1 Ogre OR 0-1 Troll

Amazons need changing, not sure in what direction though - I'd like to test the MA7 Diving Catch catcher and Fend linos.

Dark Elves - Assassin goes to MA7 for 10K

Halfling: 0-4 Catchers MA6, Catch, 60K. On roster Chef. Return of the "help to stand up" rule.

Necro: Zombies become 0-8, Skellies 5/3/2/7 Regen 30K G/ASP added as 0-8.

Norse: Norse Werewolf back to Ulfwerner :pissed: :wink: ; BG option 0-1 Snow Troll OR 0-1 Ogre OR 0-1 Minotaur

Orcs: Goblins 0-2, BOBs 0-3 (these are my house rules, so I can ignore JJ's iirational rule that positionals have to be even numbers)

Undead: Zombies 0-8; Skellies 0-8, lose Thick Skull and 30K

Vampire: Thralls gain Thick Skull, and become 50K

Wood Elves: Wardancers lose Dodge and become 110K

Chaos Dwarf: Lose Mutation access



Rules:

Petty Cash removed, Bank added

Journeymen from 0-16, 0-12 or 0-8 position

TTM attempts can be intercepted by opposing BG players, using their ST as Agility - a thrown player intecepted is scattered from the interceptor, placed prone and make a AV/Inj roll as normal - all other rules as per intercpetion.

Kick-off table: to be expanded, ideally to 2D8, maybe D6+D8 - Bad Kick returns.

Fouling: Fouler gets +1 to AV roll. Argue the call returns.

There is an additional 10K surcharge when a player gains their 3rd skill, and again when they gain their 5th.

Mutations: Rolled for randomly (table to be worked out) - a coach may elect not to take the mutation rolled, in which case they can take a skill as per the roll, but not another mutation.


Skills:

Traits: Skills listed as traits have an additional 10K added to their cost, no change in availablility
List to be decided, but include Claw, Jump Up (back to LRB4 version), Piling On, Leader (moved back to General), Stand Firm

Jump Up can be used in conjunction with Pass Block.

Sneaky Git - in addition to the CRP rules, if sent off, go to the KO box (thanks Martin :wink: ) - Babes do not help with KO rolls for sent-off SG players

Foul Appearance: combines FA and Disturbing Presence, DP removed.

Guard: Is cancelled by opposing Guard.

No Hands: If a player with No Hands somehow gains Extra Arms (Chaos Cup win for example), then the 2 cancel (so can pick up ball, but no bonus)

Secret Weapon: SW rolls return from LRB4, using the numbers from there.

Stab: No longer ignores Niggles.

Stand Firm: LRB4 version returns (but is a trait).

New skills:

Distract: An additional -1 to pick up, throw or catch in this players TZ - Distract does work against NOS.

Spikes: +1AV, works against Claw (so Claw would break on a modified 9+ vs Spikes), Mutation


Inducements:

Igor: Becomes 0-2

Wizards: Become 200K, can have a 2nd spell for an additional 150K (so 2 uses for 350K)



Let the flames commence! :smoking:

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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:37 am 
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Darkson wrote:
[snip]
Rosters:

Khemri: Blitzers and Throwers get Thick Skull free, Throwers gain NOS for 10K, 0-2 Mummies (as per Undead), 0-2 Tomb Guardians 4/4/1/8 Break Tackle (cost to be settled) GS/AP, 0-2 Skellie Catcher 6/3/2/7 Catch, NOS 60K-ish (NO Thick Skull) GA/SP

Goblins: 0-4 Secret Weapon position - each SW can be taken 0-2 times (so you could have 2 B&C and 2 Chainsaws, but no Bomber for example). 0-3 on-roster Bribes

Dwarfs: Linemen lose Tackle, Blitzers gain Tackle. Same as mine

Ogres: Ogres cost reduced by 10K, Snots MA6 for free Same as mine

Humans: Catcher AV8, Blitzer -10k cost, Big Guy option becomes 0-1 Ogre (at -10K cost) or 0-1 Minotaur

Chaos: BG option 0-1 Mino OR 0-1 Ogre OR 0-1 Troll

Amazons need changing, not sure in what direction though - I'd like to test the MA7 Diving Catch catcher and Fend linos. Same as mine, although i didnt use double skulls roster as I found it too weak so went my own way

Dark Elves - Assassin goes to MA7 for 10K

Halfling: 0-4 Catchers MA6, Catch, 60K. On roster Chef. Return of the "help to stand up" rule.

Necro: Zombies become 0-8, Skellies 5/3/2/7 Regen 30K G/ASP added as 0-8.

Norse: Norse Werewolf back to Ulfwerner :pissed: :wink: Same as mine ; BG option 0-1 Snow Troll OR 0-1 Ogre OR 0-1 Minotaur

Orcs: Goblins 0-2, BOBs 0-3 (these are my house rules, so I can ignore JJ's iirational rule that positionals have to be even numbers)

Undead: Zombies 0-8; Skellies 0-8, lose Thick Skull and 30K

Vampire: Thralls gain Thick Skull, and become 50K

Wood Elves: Wardancers lose Dodge and become 110K



Rules:

Petty Cash removed, Bank added Same as mine

Journeymen from 0-16, 0-12 or 0-8 position

TTM attempts can be intercepted by players, using their ST as Agility - a thrown player intecepted is scattered from the interceptor, placed prone and make a AV/Inj roll as normal - all other rules as per intercpetion.

Kick-off table: to be expanded, ideally to 2D8, maybe D6+D8 - Bad Kick returnsbad kick coming back is the same as mine.

Fouling: Fouler gets +1 to AV roll. Argue the call returns. Same as mine

There is an additional 10K surcharge when a player gains their 3rd skill, and again when they gain their 5th. Same as mine

Mutations: Rolled for randomly (table to be worked out) - a coach may elect not to take the mutation rolled, in which case they can take a skill as per the roll, but not another mutation. Same as mine, though they cant refuse the mutation, but mutations have mostly been given a big boost in mine, also in mine there is still the chance of picking the best mutations, similar to how your chaos gifts were handled in your arbbl mutation crazy rules ;)


Skills:

Traits: Skills listed as traits have an additional 10K added to their cost, no change in availablility
List to be decided, but include Claw, Jump Up (back to LRB4 version), Piling On, Leader (moved back to General), Stand Firm Same as mine, you should put lrb4 strong arm back in their as well imo

Jump Up can be used in conjunction with Pass Block.stealing that ;)

Sneaky Git - if sent off, go to the KO box (thanks Martin :wink: ) - Babes do not help with KO rolls for sent-off SG players

Foul Appearance: combines FA and Disturbing Presence, DP removed. Same as mine

Guard: Is cancelled by opposing Guard.

No Hands: If a player with No Hands somehow gains Extra Arms (Chaos Cup win for example), then the 2 cancel (so can pick up ball, but no bonus)

Secret Weapon: SW rolls return from LRB4, using the numbers from there. Same as mine

Stab: No longer ignores Niggles. Stealing that too ;)

Stand Firm: LRB4 version returns (but is a trait). Same as mine, although i made the dont ffall over from failed dodge part a St roll +1, so st4+ need a 2+ st3 need a 3+

New skills:

Distract: An additional -1 to pick up, throw or catch in this players TZ - Distract does work against NOS.

Spikes: +1AV, works against Claw (so Claw would break on a modified 9+ vs Spikes), Mutation almost the same as mine


Inducements:

Igor: Becomes 0-2

Wizards: Become 200K, can have a 2nd spell for an additional 150K (so 2 uses for 350K)

Let the flames commence! :smoking:


some comments in red above.

Overall I love it. Far better than CRP imo.

A few things -
Wizards - are you keeping CRP spells or reverting to lrb4 spells with zap and the ld lightning, but using the new fireball?

Big Guys - I like how you have reverted to the LRB4 version of multiple choices for big guys for each team, I was also considering doing this too. Nice :)

help the tree - I like that you brought this back as well, this was something else i was considering, but I couldn't find the rule. Is it in 3rd ed or lrb1.3?

Bits I don't like - Khemri change, wood elf change, vamp change

Humans - I also reduced the ogres cost by 10k, i did this across the board. Not sure the blitzers need the 10k reduction, av8 catchers is fine too. But not sure why you have given them the option of a Minotaur? Also I think you should reduce the mino to 130k as well. He is too expensive at the moment.

I thik the assassin change is interesting and something I considered but i didn't want to give the best race in the game another boost. What I was considering was giving them that boost then taking two blitzers away. So they still had their 4 Ma7 payers but only two started with block. Woudl be interested to hear your thoughts on that?


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:56 am 
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On phone, so keeping it brief:

Mino for humans - old fluff about Middenheim Marauders, and I don't see humans as all being "good" - there are "evil" humans out there without being chaotic.

Khemri would probably need a lot of play testing, but it's my nod back to the 2nd ed skellie team while still keeping the flavour of current GW fluff.

Woodies - I think the nerf the WE team got was aimed at the wrong piece. If needed, I'd rather unnerf the catcher.

Anti DE going to 2 blitzers - having is what makes them different from the other elves. I'd rather remove assassins than Blitzers.

Whats wrong with vamp change?

Tree? Can't remember.

Wizard - Zap to def come back. I'd have to look and compare the old and new versions for the other spells.

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SAWBBowl I Runner Up - with Vamps!
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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:30 am 
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Darkson wrote:
On phone, so keeping it brief:

Mino for humans - old fluff about Middenheim Marauders, and I don't see humans as all being "good" - there are "evil" humans out there without being chaotic. True, fair point

Khemri would probably need a lot of play testing, but it's my nod back to the 2nd ed skellie team while still keeping the flavour of current GW fluff. I guess the NoS skill is your reference to 2nd ed, I'mnot really bothered by that as it will rarely be used. I just can't get on board with khemri starting with BT. I just think it makes them too mobile, especially now they have Ma4, once you skill them all up to have Mb then you have a truely scary team, I would rather just see their Ma reduced to 3 again and bring back MB and G access than BT. Or just give them G access and get rid of decay works too

Woodies - I think the nerf the WE team got was aimed at the wrong piece. If needed, I'd rather unnerf the catcher. Yeah I'd agree there, not sure why the catchers got hit in CRP. but I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the wood elf roster, there just isnt enough threat from being prone these days, in lrb4 the threat of 2+ DP was enough to stop the WD leaping constantly.

Anti DE going to 2 blitzers - having is what makes them different from the other elves. I'd rather remove assassins than Blitzers. yeah me too really. such a hard roster to make changes to i think

Whats wrong with vamp change?

Tree? Can't remember.

Wizard - Zap to def come back. I'd have to look and compare the old and new versions for the other spells.


wizard difference is Lightning could only be used from side line and hit the first person under the template on a 2d6 3+ roll. I changed that to 1 d6 1 fails for my rules. Though I also changed it so you have to roll under Av to roll for Injruy and injury had a +1, after all it is lightning.

Old fireball the players made an ag roll based on their agility to dodge the blast, crp as you know is just blanket 4+ to hit which is better because it doesnt hurt the bash teams too much and keep the elf teams safe which the old fireball did to a certain extent.

Other traits I think you should include are - LRB4 strong Arm, and Frenzy

I dont like the vamp roster because it makes their linemen too expensive. Their typical starting roster these days is 4 vamps 7 linemen and 4 RR which is 1000k. With that change people would be forced into dropping a rr, which would hurt them badly. I also don't like thick skull because it negates the effects of OFAB so much, and ofab has already been made loads weaker, thyough if you bring back proper injuries from ofab and give them thick skull then fair enough :D I can't remeber the maths exactly and its too early for me to think lol but in CRP i believe the odds of being KO+ from ofab are 45% ish and with thick skull it takes them down to 38% ish i believe. Personally I would rather see them just get av8, that way they would be able to stand up to blocks a lot better but the chances of being hurt by your team mate would be the same. You could also keep their price the same really because they have a negatrait "thrall". But I'm also not a fan of that either, I actually think vamps are a very good race, for me the biggest problem with them is their RR cost. It always feels like you are playing at an incorrect TV with vamps to me, it always feels like you do not get much for your money unlike other teams and since the team is so RR dependant your TV is so over inflated it can get crippling when you are the higher TV team and your opponent has more skills, needs less RR and gets to have a chainsaw and a wizard against you even though the match would feel reasonably fair without.

But those are very minor points I make, on the whole I really love what you have done there, and would far rather play those rules than the current ones. still think fouling needs more though lol.


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:39 am 
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Had you noticed I'd made the TGs ST4, so I'd actually reduced the strength of the Khemri roster?

The nod to 2nd ed is bringing back catchers.
The nod to current fluff is lowering the number of mummies and NOS.

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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:42 am 
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Darkson wrote:
Had you noticed I'd made the TGs ST4, so I'd actually reduced the strength of the Khemri roster?


Ah no I hadn't, fair enough, no issue with that roster at all then. :oops:

Yeah it looks a lot better now imo, more fun, more interesting. Thumbs up.


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:35 am 
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Hi Darkson,
I pretty much like all of these. Very nice :D
While I'd probably lean towards purist LRB6 given the choice between just the 2, I certainly wouldn't leave a league that adopted your rules. I'd play along and have great fun.

There a few bits I'm a bit worried about:
DEs: Even at +10K, it's still a buff to a strong team (IMO). Not super comfortable with that.

Khemri: Love the set-up, except I'm a bit worried about the singles access to a Blodge ball carrier inside the cage.

Oh, and I have a hard time figuring out the consequences of Guard cancels Guard. Playtest ahoy :D

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:41 am 
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plasmoid wrote:
Oh, and I have a hard time figuring out the consequences of Guard cancels Guard. Playtest ahoy :D


Yes I don't really get how that would work either tbh, it kind of does that already doesn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:50 am 
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garion wrote:
plasmoid wrote:
Oh, and I have a hard time figuring out the consequences of Guard cancels Guard. Playtest ahoy :D


Yes I don't really get how that would work either tbh, it kind of does that already doesn't it?


Nope.

For example:

Troll (ST 5) blocks Human Catcher (ST 2). 3 dice.
Both have 1 guard assist currently, now ST 6 against ST 3, so 2 dice.

Under Darkson's rules, this would remain a 3D block. Neat idea.


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:04 pm 
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Hitonagashi wrote:
garion wrote:
plasmoid wrote:
Oh, and I have a hard time figuring out the consequences of Guard cancels Guard. Playtest ahoy :D


Yes I don't really get how that would work either tbh, it kind of does that already doesn't it?


Nope.

For example:

Troll (ST 5) blocks Human Catcher (ST 2). 3 dice.
Both have 1 guard assist currently, now ST 6 against ST 3, so 2 dice.

Under Darkson's rules, this would remain a 3D block. Neat idea.


Okay I got that much but what I'm not sure about is - in your example if the human catcher has a Blitzer with guard next to him but the troll doesn't have a guard player standing next to the catcher, but instead the orc team has an orc blitzer with guard standing next to the blitzer with guard. Would that canel the Human blitzers guard in the same way as normal tackle zones?


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:24 pm 
Legend
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I understand how it works: When in the TZ of a Guard, neither one of you can apply a Guard assist.
I just can't figure out the consequences.

For example: Guard in a classic x-cage. Guard elf neutralizes the guard player from the outside. Wardancer leaps in to take his 1-dicer.
My head spins :lol:
That's all I'm saying.
Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:42 pm 
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plasmoid wrote:
I understand how it works: When in the TZ of a Guard, neither one of you can apply a Guard assist.
I just can't figure out the consequences.

For example: Guard in a classic x-cage. Guard elf neutralizes the guard player from the outside. Wardancer leaps in to take his 1-dicer.
My head spins :lol:
That's all I'm saying.
Cheers
Martin


I read that as "If a player has a guard ally applying a +ve assist on him and a guard applying a -ve assist on him, the two cancel and no guard assists are applied"...seemed like a much more minor change :D.

As you say, the other way, WD's and slann become epically awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:10 pm 
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yup, thats the bit i need clearing up really. Otherwise it is a HUGE boost to elves.


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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:04 pm 
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It's meant to be the first way Hito mentioned but:

a) I knew what I meant, which is not always the best way to explain things
b) I was typing in a hurry, and jumping around my post
c) I need a clear way to explain it!

On DEs I agree, and the change would need testing, but again, I'd rather remove the assassins than remove 2blitzers.


A couple of ideas that came to me while I slept, that I haven't fully thought through yet:
1. Assassins become Mercenaries only, and then could add a Skaven and Human version.
2. All BGs get TTM, and can now attempt to throw opposing stunty/titchy players. Opposing players make a AG roll (with a +1 modifier) to avoid being picked up. Strong Arm goes back to LRB4 version, becomes a Trait and moves to passing; CRP Strong Arm is renamed "Heave". Trees get Heave, not SA.

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 Post subject: Re: ARBBLRB
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:51 pm 
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Thinking of making DP +1 to both rolls, instead of one or the other - I don't want to nerf CLAWPOMB, just make being prone a little more unsafe.


Assassins: hmmm

Mercs:
0-1 DE Assassin : 7/3/4/7 Loner, Shadowing, Stab 90K GA will pay for DE and (Pro) Elf
0-1 Human Assassin 7/3/3/7 Loner, Side Step, Stab 80K GA will play for Chaos, Human, Amazon and Norse
0-1 Skaven Assassin 7/3/4/7 Loner, Leap, Stab 90K GA will play for Skaven (d'uh! :wink: )

And non-fluffy, but what the hell:

0-1 Goblin Asa..Asssa..Killa! 6/2/3/7 Loner, Dodge, Stunty, Stab 60K A will play for Goblins and Orcs

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Last edited by Darkson on Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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