Nudging Dodge

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
this is not NTBB, just me thinking out loud.
Everybody knows blodge is king. And block and dodge are each in their own right awesome skills.
Heck, dodge is a very popular doubles pick.

In the past it has been suggested to split both block and dodge into 2 skills each.
I think the impact would be massive and very hard to analyse - so I don't think that's a good idea.
Block already took a pseudo nerf with the introduction of wrestle in LRB5/6.

How about this for dodge:
When this player uses Dodge skill to reroll, the player momentarily stumbles but regains his footing - therefore spending the reroll will cause his MA to drop by 1 for the remainder of the action. (Insert blahblah to deal with GFIs).
Cheers
Martin

[Hitonagashi]

It's not a bad nerf, but what's the objective? To prevent people taking it on doubles (mostly for survivability and difficulty to put down), or to prevent people using it to dodge repeatedly through TZ to score?

This to me would just be reasonably irritating for elves, be very irritating for stunty races, and wouldn't affect the number of people taking it on doubles picks.

[plasmoid]

The intent is to weaken the skill in order to make it less of an appealing skill pick.

I can imagine lots of situations where it would be a real pain. OTS comes to mind. But generally, whenever you do a string of dodges, you're likely to end up with one less MA.

[Hitonagashi]

Well, the issue from my end is that the people it hits most, the string of dodge folks, are the ones that already start with it! Most catchers or high speed runners start with dodge already, and teams such as Dark Elves rarely need to make multiple dodges. Even then, among the speed scorer types that don't start with it, they are generally AV 7 with no defensive skills, so blodge is essential for survivability anyway.

[DoubleSkulls]

The intent is to weaken the skill in order to make it less of an appealing skill pick.

Not to make this another CLPOMB thread, but the primary reason it gets taken on doubles is for protection when being blocked, not to help with mobility. I think the weakening of CLPOMB in the NTBB rules may well see Dodge be reduced as a preferred double skill as protection won't be so vital.

[Xadie]

Heck, dodge is a very popular doubles pick.

Heck, block is an even more popular choice on doubles for those who don't have general access.



If you gimp dodge so much then hell you have to make up for it for those races that depend on dodge (Elfs and Skaven primary, Stunties+Lizard) ...
And you called westle rightly a pseudo-nerf. Pseudo = false. Westle is not even near a hard counter skill like Tackle is to Dodge.

[burgun824]

Xadie brings up a great point. Dodge has a direct counter skill in Tackle and it's General access. GA access is rare enough and those types of players are usually hampered in other ways (primarily AV7 and high cost). I think that I like it the way it is.

[adhansa]

I think simple rerolls without sideeffects are pretty beautiful groundrules for skills, and splitting a skill is opening a can of wurms.

Doubleskulls methd to nerf popular bash skills and by that making Tackle more popular is something that should be tried first.

[Rhyoth]

I think doubleskulls is right : dodge is mostly taken because of the protection factor, so your change would have a very limited impact for most players. OTOH, i think it would hurt stunties too much. So, if you want to make dodge less appealing, i only see two options left :

1) skill tiering : by making Dodge (and other skill like Block and Guard) worth 10 k more, it wouldn't be an auto-pick anymore

2) give players who seek protection an alternative choice :
for example, you could add this change to Fend : "When the player is blocked/blitzed, he is placed prone instead of Knocked down on a Defenser stumbles result."
note : this is only an example, i'm not convinced this change would be for the best

(technically, there is a third option : making Tackle more common, either by buffing it and/or just changing it so this skill would be more versatile, but i don't really like this one...)

[plasmoid]

I can see that this won't fly.

But for the record, I think dodge is so popular, because it offers both mobility and protection - and it does both quite well!
I've seen lots of coaches give the advice to not take dodge (on doubles) for a dwarf, because he won't be using it for dodging, so he'd only be getting half the mileage.

But never mind

[neverworking]

if it was going to be done, i think the skill tiering is the fairest way to go (without repricing players starting with it).

the tactical implications of not being able to count your distance properly strikes me as massive. so i don't know where the imbalance would turn up most, but that's really the problem. its not entirely clear who would get stuck the most with the nerf, but its very clear it would have strong implications in play style on a large number of teams.

I suppose you could force a player to declare where they were going to use their dodge skill before rolling the dice, but that breaks the rule of getting to see the dice before picking your skill and it would be very rough on stunties (who can always get exceptions to rules by expanding on the stunty rule). not a fan of this plan, but it would be less drastic and force some players to consider longer routes or not risk too many multi-dodge maneuvers.

[burgun824]

I've seen lots of coaches give the advice to not take dodge (on doubles) for a dwarf, because he won't be using it for dodging, so he'd only be getting half the mileage.

I think doubleskull's point about people taking it for defense is spot on. I guess it can be a matter of how you play but I've taken dodge on a number of ocassions with doubles for players I don't intend to do any dodging with just because it helps keep them on their feet when they're being attacked. A blodging back orc for example can be a nightmare to contend with when attacking, but I still wouldn't go dodging with him unless I didn't have any other choice. I'd think the same would hold true for a dwarf, especially not having any A access on normal rolls. There's no doubt that I may be wrong on this but if you were to ask me what skill I'd take on doubles for a dwarf blocker...the first thing that pops to mind is dodge. Unless he's a DP...then I'd take sneaky git.

[zerodemon]

Make it so players can only have Block/Wrestle OR Dodge. Makes little sense in terms of an actual player that they'd have both. Surely you'd be either quick and capable of dodging or be a sturdy individual more likely to resist a block.

Yes it would make a big change to the game and how many teams and positionals usually opt to develop, but is that such a bad thing? We're testing a Dungeonbowl league with this houserule right now, and it has forced players to be more creative with skill choice.