Evolved Elf teams

theghr · Post by **theghr** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:31 am

Hi. You experienced coaches, what is the main reason that Elf teams get so good after playing a long time? Is it their higher basic stats which means higher evolved stats, the skills they can choose from, or both? Is it their AG4, is that ability under-charged in the player value? Thanks for your thoughts.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:32 am

I've found, in general, that good base stats means good high-TV performance, irrespective of starting skills. Since poorer base stats tend to be offset with more skills at the start (e.g. Dwarves) then teams built that way tend to do better at lower TV.

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:30 am

I think the greatest strength is AG4 across the board as well as every player having general and agility access.

When anyone on your team can be used as a ball carrier (ok not the treeman) then it opens up a huge array of possibilities. A single 3+ roll with a re-roll still has a 1 in 9 chance of failing so for AG3 teams then even picking up the ball, dodging or handing off is a risk you don’t want to take unless it is vital or failing won’t really matter.

Mass dodge is very effective too as few bashy teams will have acces to a lot of tackle since the skill will be largely useless against other bashy teams. Even dwarfs will often only have it on 5 or 6 players and these will be MA4 and AG2 since other skills may be more appealing for their positionals with strength access.

I’ve found dark and high elves can be more survivable than humans despite having the same AV and ST (or more ST in the case of catchers). Even the 5 players with strength access don’t help that much and can be a detriment as it encourages humans to engage the enemy when they may be better off switching to elfball.

theghr · Post by **theghr** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:57 am

Thanks. My goal is to make the teams in our league with low starting stats able to compete when we've played a few seasons. Is my best bet to simply boost their starting stats? I'll be sure to use the team creator formula with one possible exception: What are your experiences with giving runners/catchers on partially ST4-teams AG4? This surely would open up the game some i think.

Hitonagashi · Post by **Hitonagashi** » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:01 pm

theghr wrote:Thanks. My goal is to make the teams in our league with low starting stats able to compete when we've played a few seasons. Is my best bet to simply boost their starting stats? I'll be sure to use the team creator formula with one possible exception: What are your experiences with giving runners/catchers on partially ST4-teams AG4? This surely would open up the game some i think.

Broken.

There are several teams in the 'high tv' boat; not just elves. Chaos/Nurgle are extremely good at high TV, and Dwarves and Orcs aren't too shabby either. If you make a chaos team which can take AG 4, it'll dominate everything.

The main 'problem' with high TV elves is that inducements do not help against them. They can easily recover a wizardpopped ball, and almost no stars come with tackle to counter them. If I had to take a 'simple' way of nerfing elves, I'd design a league specific star player, costing around 200k-300k, who comes with block/tackle/mighty blow/juggernaut. How about this:

Urthas Anklecruncher (orc) - Cost: 220k

MV 6, ST3, AG2, AV9
Skills: Block/Tackle/Mighty Blow/Juggernaut/No Hands
Fluff: Urthas hates Elves. He hates them! After having both of his hands snipped off in a close encounter with a Slannesshi Warrior, Urthas has long envied the pointy eared freaks who so easily do what he can no longer do. Luckily, the Doc replaced his hands with two big hammers, and Urthas just loves to smash down the elves that get in his way.

Then, just give Urthas to all the races you think need a boost.

theghr · Post by **theghr** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:28 am

Hitonagashi wrote:
theghr wrote:Thanks. My goal is to make the teams in our league with low starting stats able to compete when we've played a few seasons. Is my best bet to simply boost their starting stats? I'll be sure to use the team creator formula with one possible exception: What are your experiences with giving runners/catchers on partially ST4-teams AG4? This surely would open up the game some i think.
Broken.

There are several teams in the 'high tv' boat; not just elves. Chaos/Nurgle are extremely good at high TV, and Dwarves and Orcs aren't too shabby either. If you make a chaos team which can take AG 4, it'll dominate everything.

The main 'problem' with high TV elves is that inducements do not help against them. They can easily recover a wizardpopped ball, and almost no stars come with tackle to counter them. If I had to take a 'simple' way of nerfing elves, I'd design a league specific star player, costing around 200k-300k, who comes with block/tackle/mighty blow/juggernaut. How about this:

Urthas Anklecruncher (orc) - Cost: 220k

MV 6, ST3, AG2, AV9
Skills: Block/Tackle/Mighty Blow/Juggernaut/No Hands
Fluff: Urthas hates Elves. He hates them! After having both of his hands snipped off in a close encounter with a Slannesshi Warrior, Urthas has long envied the pointy eared freaks who so easily do what he can no longer do. Luckily, the Doc replaced his hands with two big hammers, and Urthas just loves to smash down the elves that get in his way.

Then, just give Urthas to all the races you think need a boost.

Yeah that's a good idea.

Giving AG4 to runners would be on the Norse and perhaps the Undead team by the way, i did'nt specify that. Is it cool with one or two players on those teams having this ability? The thought of if makes me all warm inside you know, does it not give an extra flavor to the possibilities? After all the Elves still got a whole team full of them, so it might just be a nice lil change?

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:36 am

The Elves have no S access, unlike both the Undead and the Norse. It's no small change.

theghr · Post by **theghr** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:46 pm

dode74 wrote:The Elves have no S access, unlike both the Undead and the Norse. It's no small change.

No they dont have S access, but they are still MUCH better than Norse and Undead at higher TV. It's just a matter of not boosting the other teams too much. I cant see why AG4 on the runners in itself are too much, the Elves will still dominate them in the basic stats and thats why they are much better in the long run. AG4 or not, i will remove many of norses and perhaps the Undeads starting skills in our league as i give those teams starting stats comparable to the Elves. The players will still as a whole have their respective character but the stats will just be boosted here and there using the team creator formula to fasten the players value. There is a wide gap in their starting stats up to the elves and that must be fixed to be able to enjoy seasons after seasons of continued league play with good parity. All the "Narrow tier" setups i think i've seen does not care very good about the teams parity in the long run.

Smurf · Post by **Smurf** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:16 pm

Elves: avoid being outpaced, set up deep. Tackle, about 4, makes the humble wardancer pants, yeah 120k of thumpable AV7.

High turn over of players may result in more guard.

Target players, if it's good keep hitting it until it goes off. Take hotpots to steal rerolls.

Attrition is key.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:41 am

theghr wrote:No they dont have S access, but they are still MUCH better than Norse and Undead at higher TV. It's just a matter of not boosting the other teams too much. I cant see why AG4 on the runners in itself are too much, the Elves will still dominate them in the basic stats and thats why they are much better in the long run. AG4 or not, i will remove many of norses and perhaps the Undeads starting skills in our league as i give those teams starting stats comparable to the Elves. The players will still as a whole have their respective character but the stats will just be boosted here and there using the team creator formula to fasten the players value. There is a wide gap in their starting stats up to the elves and that must be fixed to be able to enjoy seasons after seasons of continued league play with good parity. All the "Narrow tier" setups i think i've seen does not care very good about the teams parity in the long run.

It's a matter of being able to both create gaps reliably (S access giving easy POMB, especially on ST4 players) and exploit them (AG4, potentially 5 or 6 with A access meaning dodges through multiple TZs). Sure, some good rolls can see elf teams with POMB or other teams with AG5 players, but those teams tend to do very well, which is my point: make it easier to develop to those levels and you make a big improvement.

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:55 pm

AG4 combined with agility access makes a massive difference to a team and really transforms them so you have to be careful where to add it. A bash or hybrid team gaining 2 AG4 players gets a lot more than an agile team gaining 2 bashy players with strength access.

Giving undead or norse AG4 would make them very powerful at low TV where they are already 2 of the best teams. I’m not sure how much it would assist them at high TV though.

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:45 am

If you wanted to rein in Elves long term, why not just strip the elf linemen of Ag skill access as a house rule?

theghr · Post by **theghr** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:38 pm

spubbbba wrote:Giving undead or norse AG4 would make them very powerful at low TV where they are already 2 of the best teams. I’m not sure how much it would assist them at high TV though.

Yes you're correct, but i would also remove many of their starting skills, would'nt that take care of that?

Shteve0 wrote:If you wanted to rein in Elves long term, why not just strip the elf linemen of Ag skill access as a house rule?

Yeah i thought of that, but Dark Elves which is the actual team here has ten slots available for non-linemen. Did'nt think of Elf teams which have only eight and Wood Elves nine.

dines · Post by **dines** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:15 am

I think there is a rule regarding team construction that no team may have both ST4 and AG4 players (big guys not included). Vamps are the only exception, but they suck, so they don't count.

Some of the best teams are bashers with an AG4 ballcarrier, now they have to be lucky to get there... And I think it's essential that it stays that way.

Edit: I think Hito has a much better idea with the new starplayer.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:47 am

Yep. It's point 1 in the guidelines.

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