ALT3RD Rulebook

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

@Juriel:

Khemri - OK. The reason I want to tweak Khemri is twofold; (a) Decay on the TGs is horrible, mainly as it effects things off the pitch only and ruins your biggest, slowest skilling investment; and (b) because the Thick Skull doesn't sit nicely for me on the skeletons alone. Whatever the skeleton linemen get should act as a basis for the other players (much like the other rosters that have survived so far). I like Nerves of Steel - yes, it's a bit of a joke, but I think it's fun and thematic!

So, I propose this alternative, which I'm actually pretty happy with:
0-16 Skeleton Lineman 50,000gp 5 3 2 8 Regeneration, Nerves of Steel G/ASP
0-2 Skeleton Runner 70,000gp 6 3 2 7 Regeneration, Nerves of Steel, Sure Hands, Dump Off GP/AS
0-2 Skeleton Blitzer 90,000gp 6 3 2 8 Regeneration, Nerves of Steel, Block GS/AP
0-4 Mummy Blocker 100,000gp 4 5 1 8 Regeneration, Nerves of Steel S/GAP
Rerolls = 70,000gp // Apothecary = No

Orcs: I hear you. Troll and goblins dropped, Blitzers go to 0-2 at 90,000gp. Skaven: natural M-access was a typo, so that goes (oops). I'm thinking Gutter Runners to 90k, and if that's not enough, Rerolls up to 60k.

Dwarves: I hear you on Choas Dwarves, but I was thinking to reintroduce those too, I think they're worth an extra slot on their own merit. Perhaps the best way to do this is to focus on the line dwarf. I want to pull them back from the 70k line (all the other rosters have 40-60k linemen), and spam Block/Tackle/S access is not cool - note how little Block there is on these starting rosters, and how I've pulled back on S-access. So something else is possibly necessary. How about 50k linemen at 4 3 3 9 Dauntless G/ASP? Too bland?
spubbbba wrote:...a bit less blockle in the team may not be a bad thing. Mind you there is a danger you make rookie wood elves even better since they can start with 6 dodge (including 2 blodge) players.
Don't forget, I've cut WElves entirely - they weren't distinct in 2nd Edition, so I've merged them into generic Elves that keep aspects of Elf, High Elf and Wood Elf rosters.

Also, re: Dwarves, I totally agree on capping out at 0-4 blocker, 0-2 runner, 0-2 slayer. I like the slayer at Juggs (pinched from NTBB, I think) and they have character, so he stays. I think 0-4 blocker is necessary, likely with block/stand firm with S access, as otherwise they'll be taken to pieces. But most of all, I don't want any team to have the option to take more that 8 positionals.

@Afroman:

One of my own pet hates is trees in blood bowl. So, they go. Sorry :)

I also don't really feel the idea of halfling positionals, though I think your suggestions are cool. Instead, I'll take that idea of Sure Feet offering a landing reroll to thrown players (not leap though, yet). And you know what? I think if I compare a halfling to a goblin, they got nailed. So I reckon ALL halflings now get Sure Feet, for 10k extra. In return though, Rerolls go to 70k and the masterchef to 150,000gp

0-16 Halfling Lineman 40,000gp 5 2 3 6 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Sure Feet* A/GSP
0-4 Ogre Thrower 140,000gp 5 5 2 9 Bone-Head, Throw Team-Mate, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull SP/GS
Rerolls: 70,000gp Apothecary: Yes Induced masterchef: 150,000gp

What do you guys make of these ideas? Improvements?

Cheers!
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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Afroman »

Shteve0 wrote:@Juriel:
What do you guys make of these ideas? Improvements?
Cheers!

The new and improved Sure Feet on every Fling would surely make a difference, and like I mentioned earlier, Ogres are probably the Best BG in the game. So the short answer is YES, they are improvements.

The long answer contains a passiionate monologue colored by personal supressed feelings and anecdotes. Keywords like "theme","potential" and "competence" will be used carelessly to describe how I would like a game with flings to be and in several places a curse will be given to the goblins. But I won't bore you with that :P.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

Shteve0 wrote:Khemri - OK. The reason I want to tweak Khemri is twofold; (a) Decay on the TGs is horrible, mainly as it effects things off the pitch only and ruins your biggest, slowest skilling investment; and (b) because the Thick Skull doesn't sit nicely for me on the skeletons alone. Whatever the skeleton linemen get should act as a basis for the other players (much like the other rosters that have survived so far). I like Nerves of Steel - yes, it's a bit of a joke, but I think it's fun and thematic!
Then the obvious answer is removing Decay and giving every skeleton-ish positional Thick Skull too. Not removing it and replacing it with nothing (yes, NoS on AG2 is nothing). While AV8 is overall the same as AV7 + Thick Skull for staying on the pitch (gets stunned less, but is weaker against Claw), the fact that you then hike the basic skeleton price up by +10k is a direct nerf to the team. And Khemri weren't exactly top contenders before.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by dode74 »

AV8/Thick Skull gives similar odds for pitch removal (both KO and Cas) as AV9/Decay, but with fewer long-term issues, iirc (need to run the maths again tbh). I agree TGs are not players you'd want to be recycling constantly from a game mechanic POV (unlike Rotters), so Decay on them is horrible.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Juriel wrote:Then the obvious answer is removing Decay and giving every skeleton-ish positional Thick Skull too. Not removing it and replacing it with nothing (yes, NoS on AG2 is nothing). While AV8 is overall the same as AV7 + Thick Skull for staying on the pitch (gets stunned less, but is weaker against Claw), the fact that you then hike the basic skeleton price up by +10k is a direct nerf to the team. And Khemri weren't exactly top contenders before.
Totally agree that that's the obvious thing to do, but I think of thick skull and find myself wondering why a human skeleton would have a thicker skull than a human lineman. And I read the 2nd edition fluff, and thick skull doesn't fit that - they're supposed to be easier to get back on to the pitch, not harder to get off it. I guess regen plays to that, but I'm not 100% convinced.

What would fit - and I want to be cautious about throwing too many mental ideas around in quick succession, here - is something that brings the team back more quickly from injury, not just prevents it in the first place. I like regeneration and will keep it on the Zombie and Vampire rosters (to come later), but since I've scrapped my original Relentless idea entirely, how about a skill for Skeleton teams (all players, replaces Regen+Thick Skull+Decay) that says something like "Relentless (E) - you can't keep a good man down! This player has staying power beyond natural levels and can play on through all but the most debilitating of injuries. To represent this, whenever this player suffers a Badly Hurt result, place him in the KO box as opposed to the Dead and Injured box. He may roll to return to the pitch at the beginning of each drive exactly as if he were KO'd". Skeleton teams would then be entitled to apothecaries to prevent the more evil injuries destroying their progression, and the team would match the fluff without jeopardising your opponent's SPP count. What do you reckon?

As for the nerf, NoS and Dump Off over pass on the Runner feels like a buff to me. The cost increase when moving to AV8, when you look at Zombies, justifies the movement increase (and yes, free "joke" skill) they benefit from in comparison. Still open to discussing though, I'm not convinced this is cracked yet.
dode74 wrote:AV8/Thick Skull gives similar odds for pitch removal (both KO and Cas) as AV9/Decay, but with fewer long-term issues, iirc (need to run the maths again tbh). I agree TGs are not players you'd want to be recycling constantly from a game mechanic POV (unlike Rotters), so Decay on them is horrible.
Interesting stat, thanks. And fully agree on the latter part - Decay on your most costly players is an abhorence.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

SKELETON TEAM
Shteve0 wrote:Totally agree that that's the obvious thing to do, but I think of thick skull and find myself wondering why a human skeleton would have a thicker skull than a human lineman.
Ugh, fluff reasoning, I hate those. Still: because KOs are caused by brains sloshing around that skull, and skellies have none.
how about a skill for Skeleton teams (all players, replaces Regen+Thick Skull+Decay) that says something like "Relentless (E) - you can't keep a good man down! This player has staying power beyond natural levels and can play on through all but the most debilitating of injuries. To represent this, whenever this player suffers a Badly Hurt result, place him in the KO box as opposed to the Dead and Injured box. He may roll to return to the pitch at the beginning of each drive exactly as if he were KO'd". Skeleton teams would then be entitled to apothecaries to prevent the more evil injuries destroying their progression, and the team would match the fluff without jeopardising your opponent's SPP count. What do you reckon?
Regen already has basically the same overall effect, with no new skill being made up just for that purpose. And without upping the TV by 50k for apo, that only protects you from a serious injury 50% of the time once per match.

I think Thick Skull + Regen gives a nice feel of 'they just keep coming' when facing Khemri. Especially because they are the only team where everyone Regens.
As for the nerf, NoS and Dump Off over pass on the Runner feels like a buff to me.
But it's not. I use even Pass more with Khemri than I ever would Dump-Off when hit. Because AG2 will fumble the pass, and even if they don't, then no-one is there to catch it. You're trading a 55% likelihood of the Thrower being taken down to 75% likelihood of dropping the ball on the ground - Dump-Off will never help you.
The cost increase when moving to AV8, when you look at Zombies, justifies the movement increase (and yes, free "joke" skill) they benefit from in comparison.
While AV8 skeletons would have a bit better shelf life than AV7, the rate of getting taken off the pitch is about the same for AV7+Thick Skull vs just AV8. So it doesn't really help Khemri have any stronger pitch presence, and just raises the cost of their base unit.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by dode74 »

Because AG2 will fumble the pass, and even if they don't, then no-one is there to catch it.
AG2 is as likely to fumble as AG5. They are FAR more likely to be inaccurate, of course...

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Hitonagashi »

Juriel wrote:
how about a skill for Skeleton teams (all players, replaces Regen+Thick Skull+Decay) that says something like "Relentless (E) - you can't keep a good man down! This player has staying power beyond natural levels and can play on through all but the most debilitating of injuries. To represent this, whenever this player suffers a Badly Hurt result, place him in the KO box as opposed to the Dead and Injured box. He may roll to return to the pitch at the beginning of each drive exactly as if he were KO'd". Skeleton teams would then be entitled to apothecaries to prevent the more evil injuries destroying their progression, and the team would match the fluff without jeopardising your opponent's SPP count. What do you reckon?
Regen already has basically the same overall effect, with no new skill being made up just for that purpose. And without upping the TV by 50k for apo, that only protects you from a serious injury 50% of the time once per match.

I think Thick Skull + Regen gives a nice feel of 'they just keep coming' when facing Khemri. Especially because they are the only team where everyone Regens.

Not entirely. It means that if you are kicking in the first half, every BH you take has a 75% chance of returning to the pitch, as opposed to a 25% one (and makes Babes really quite useful for Khemri). I'd keep the linos at 40k though. AV8 == Thick Skull, and if NoS is purely a fluff skill, don't make them pay for it!

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Hi guys

As Hitonagashi says, it's very different. With Regen you have a 50% chance of curing all injuries, no matter how severe; with my suggestion, you 'cure' 50% of injuries (the 1-3 scores) automatically, and the rest not at all. Plus you then have potentially multiple attempts at getting those guys back into the action, particularly with babes and/or apoth.

@Juriel, I hear what you're saying on the fluff based reasoning, but remoulding existing teams in line with 2nd Edition fluff is probably 80% of the goal of this exercise. Sorry :) If it helps though, feel free to ignore Nerves of Steel completely and then I'll just sneak it in at the end as a freebie ;)

SKELETON TEAMS

Code: Select all

Qty	Title			Cost	MA	ST	AG	AV	Skills					Normal	Double
0-16	Skeleton Lineman	40,000	5	3	2	7	Relentless*, Nerves of Steel		G	ASP
0-2	Skeleton Runner		70,000	6	3	2	7	Relentless*, NoS, Dump Off, Sure Hands	GP	AS		
0-2	Skeleton Blitzer	90,000	6	3	2	8	Relentless*, Nerves of Steel, Block	GS	AP
0-4	Mummy Blocker		100,000	4	5	1	9	Relentless*, Nerves of Steel		S	GAP
0-8 Re-roll counters: 70,000 gold pieces each	

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

Fair enough, I just want you to be aware that this roster is weaker than the default Khemri. If that's the design goal, then that's fine.

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Sure, ok, though I don't know if it would be strictly worse, your top players get much better protection now. No worries if they are slightly weaker though - since most of the better teams are getting dragged through the dirt in power level, I'm comfortable with an arguable slight knock to Khemri, who don't strike me as being thematically top level.

The more we talk about this, the more interested I think I'd be in a vastly weakened roster set. I feel like stripping out a lot of essential skills would make developing players more interesting and challenging. May just be me, though!

On the subject of that, here are some ideas for the non-core rosters, since this isn't purely about cutting other teams out, but instead refocussing on the themes of the old 2ed teams. It makes sense that more would be added in third (I mean, they were, after all).

AMAZON TEAMS
Long ago, driven by a desire for adventure, the Valkyries of the Norse settlement in South Amorica sailed away from their men-folk and founded a colony deep within the estuary of the river Amaxon. Now these ferocious warriors have taken to the Blood Bowl pitch – and Nuffle save those who dare play against them!

Code: Select all

0-16  Human Linewoman  60,000	6	3	3	7	Dodge	          GA / SP
0-2	Human Thrower	 70,000	6	3	3	7	Dodge, Pass	    GAP / S
0-4	Human Catcher	 70,000	8	2	3	7	Dodge, Catch	   GA / SP
0-2	Human Valkyrie	90,000	6	3	3	8	Dodge, Stand Firm GAS / P

0-8 Rerolls (50,000 each), 0-1 Apothecary (50,000 each). No special rules
CHAOS DWARF TEAMS
Chaos Dwarfs are the twisted descendants of Dwarf explorers who have been terribly affected by the forces of Chaos, turning them into evil, self-centred creatures that love playing Blood Bowl. In many ways, then, they haven’t changed at all! Chaos Dwarfs are not very numerous and make great use of sneaky Hobgoblin slaves to perform all kinds of tasks, including playing on their Blood Bowl teams.

Code: Select all

0-16	Hobgoblin Lineman	40,000	6	3	3	7	None	G	ASP
0-4	Dwarf Blocker	     70,000	4	3	2	9	Block, Tackle, Thick Skull	GS	APM
0-2	Dwarf Bull Centaur  130,000   6	4	2	9	Sprint, Sure Feet, Thick Skull	GS	AP
0-1	Minotaur Blitzer	 150,000	5	5	2	8	Loner, Frenzy, Horns, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Wild Animal	S	GAPM		

0-8 Rerolls (70,000 each), 0-1 Apothecary (50,000 each). No special rules
NORSE TEAMS
Norse teams have a well deserved reputation for ferocity both on and off the playing pitch. The Norse - along with Beastmen from the frozen forests of the north - that take up Blood Bowl are truly unedifying specimens, interested only in beer, women and song off the playing pitch, and beer, women and bloody carnage while on it!

Code: Select all

0-16	Human Renegade	60,000	6	3	3	8	Frenzy	GP	AS
0-4	Beastman Runner	80,000	6	3	3	7	Regeneration, Horns, Juggernaut	GAS	P
0-2	Human Blitzer	  90,000	6	3	3	8	Horns, Juggernaut, Frenzy	GS	AP
0-1	Yhetee Blitzer	180,000	6	5	1	8	Loner, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut, Regeneration	S	GAP
							     		
0-8 Rerolls (70,000 each), 0-1 Apothecary (50,000 each). No special rules
SLANN TEAMS
The Slann team is an ancient race of space travellers stranded on our planets many ages ago. While most Slann prefer to become fat and lazy lording over the Kroks, a few of younger and more energetic members enjoy travelling the realm and playing Blood Bowl. While the Slann have no passing game to speak of, their ability to leap, dive, and intercept are second to none.

Code: Select all

0-16	Slann Lineman	60,000	6	3	3	8	Leap, Very Long Legs	G	ASP
0-4	Slann Catcher	 80,000	7	2	4	7	Diving Catch, Leap, Very Long Legs 	GA	SP
0-4	Slann Blitzer	100,000	7	3	3	8	Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Leap, Very Long Legs	GAS	P

0-8 Rerolls (50,000 each), 0-1 Apothecary (50,000 each). No special rules

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

Shteve0 wrote:The more we talk about this, the more interested I think I'd be in a vastly weakened roster set. I feel like stripping out a lot of essential skills would make developing players more interesting and challenging. May just be me, though!
If the skills remain the same as they are now, then everyone will just pick those essential skills (like Block) on first level-up.

You cannot use the regular Chaos Dwarf roster if you're planning to take others down a notch, as they're already top-tier. Easiest nerf would be to limit their Dwarves to 0-4 - it doesn't look like much, but it forces them to use more Hobgobbos, which makes them a lot more fragile overall.

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ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Funnily enough, had thought exactly that only today. Done - post edited.

As for the skill grab, I don't think that's an issue, so long as it pushes the full house set of skills back a step for the power players. Amazon blitzers now don't get blodge guard til 16SPPs each, as opposed to 6. Any past the first two need doubles rolls. Wardancers are 16 from blodge, dwarves are 16 from blackle (currently 0 each).

I guess the idea is that, with fewer key skills and no increase in available skill slots, those super player types arrive later, more infrequently and with more diversity. I like those dilemmas that go "I need guard, I need tackle, but I'd like some strip ball or kick soon and I don't have many options". I want that six skill wardancer with +AG to have to give up something else in order to accomodate it. Does that make sense?

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Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

It will delay the 'power builds', but it will also decrease the overall variety - less Sidestep, Stand Firm, Grab, etc. Which is more the fault with the skill system itself, since most skills are only so-so, with a few omgpowerful, so you only look at the rest once you have all of the latter.

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ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

I regularly take all of those skills you mention, as well as fend, kick, kick off return, wrestle, strip ball, tackle, leader, piling on and diving tackle. Block, Dodge, Guard and MB are the cornerstones, of course, and in the first list I may only take a handful accross the team, but there is a little diversity there. Then there are the passing game and bashing game skills and, of course, the mutations, that keep it fun too.

I realise that seems to contradict my own argument, but I guess what I mean is that when a player is already largely developed towards a certain optimal build when you buy them - often at great expense - it's difficult to justify deviation from that path. I like a cleaner canvas that forces toolkit team building.

Edit: probably why I love 'zons!

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