ALT3RD Rulebook

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

Moderator: TFF Mods

User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Hi guys!

Further to the discussion over here: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 20&t=37219 - itself a deviation from an earlier thread - I've started to put together an alt 3rd edition roster list using current or close to current rules.

Disclaimer: I'm not proposing that these rosters and rules are better than anything else out there - the whole concept is simply idle whimsy. If you wish to contribute, please treat it as a bit of fun, and an exercise in futility.

So, since I've never followed or played Warhammer Fantasy Baffles, I've recently been wondering what might have been had we reached this point in time in BB's development without the merge in the two worlds' fluff ever having taken place. This is not to say that there aren't distinct similarities and race crossovers - this version is simply WHFB 'inspired' rather than tied to the same fluff and time. The races and teams from the second edition rules and fluff therefore form the 12-team backbone of this ruleset, with those rosters being: Chaos; Dark Elf; Dwarf; Elf; Goblin; Halfling (renamed "Union" for reasons that will become apparent later); Human; Orc; Rotter; Skaven; Skeleton; and Underworld. I've imagined that the marketing department at NAF has recently opened the door to a further eight teams over the course of two scheduled league expansions, welcoming four Old World teams (Chaos Dwarf; Norse; Vampire; and Zombie) and four South Amorican teams (Amazon; Ape; Krok; and Slann) in order to kowtow to emerging fan markets.

Since several of the major power teams aren't present in this core set, I've looked to rein in the power levels of several of the chosen teams to what we might currently consider lower T1/T1.5, without going overboard. Humans are made more competitive, while Orcs take only a small hit, with the aim that those two teams are the new power teams; but all of the other sides should have viable strategies to challenge on any given day. Note that while I've borrowed some ideas from Plasmoid's NTBB, I'm not looking to bring any teams up from lower tiers, simply to pull back on the highest of the high achievers and differentiate in strategies elsewhere.

Finally, in putting this together I've gone big on standardisation. As well as the populist skill name changes of "Shadowing" to "Shadow" and "Piling On" to "Pile On", I've looked to build on roster formatting conventions by streamlining the way that player names are formed. For example, the Troll on the Goblin roster is now a "Troll Blocker", while Skaven have access to a "Skaven Rat Ogre" and 0-4 "Skaven Gutter Runner". It's a small tweak, but I feel like each player having a race and position actually builds on the game's character rather than detracting from it. Note this also makes the Animosity skill rather more straightforward (as opposed to simply intuitive) in its application.

So, without further ado:

PDF draft core rosters! (updated 26/11/12):
Alt3rd v1.3 core.pdf
Skeleton roster update proposed here: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 8&start=23

Rules Tweaks:
Cheat! (E): Cheat! replaces the existing Secret Weapon rules. In addition, a player with Cheat! does not count towards the minimum number of players set up before a given drive (ie they may be left in the reserves even if it would mean fewer than eleven players take to the field for kick off.
Infect (E): Infect replaces the existing Nurgle's Rot rules.
Relentless (E): NEW SKILL that reads: "You can't keep a good man down! This player has staying power beyond natural levels and can play on through all but the most debilitating of injuries. To represent this, whenever this player suffers a Badly Hurt result, place him in the KO box as opposed to the Dead and Injured box. He may roll to return to the pitch at the beginning of each drive exactly as if he were KO'd."

Hope you like! I'm currently stealing ideas from various sources for refocussing the expansion teams, particularly Zombie (Undead) and Krok (Lizardman) teams. If you have any ideas, please feel free to chuck them in the mixing pot! Working ideas for the first four are here: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 8&start=25
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
User avatar
Sandwich
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 556
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:36 pm
Location: Godmanchester, UK

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Sandwich »

Some nice ideas in here, but I've got a couple of comments:
Shteve0 wrote:Dwarf: One of the two biggest roster shakeup. Dwarf Linemen lose Tackle and Thick Skull, instead gaining Shorty and Relentless; Dwarf Runners go to AG2 and lose Thick Skull, instead gaining Shorty and Break Tackle; Dwarf Blitzers go to AG2 and lose Thick Skull, instead gaining Shorty and Relentless; Dwarf Trollslayers lose Block and Thick Skull and gain Shorty, Relentless and Juggernaut; and the Deathroller trades out Thick Skull for Relentless.
This looks ok to me - though I've always thought Troll Slayers should get Pile/ing On as a starting skill, to match the "fluff" about them wanting to kill or be killed.
Skaven: Formatting changes only.
As you seem to be moving away from GW names, these should probably be renamed as something ratty.
Skeleton: Ostensibly a Khemri reformat, with some tweaks. The Tomb Guardian becomes a Mummy Blocker after the loss of the Undead roster, at 100k 4519 S/GAP with Regen and Nerves of Steel. The Skeleton Lineman loses Thick Skull but gains +1MA and Nerves of Steel in return; The Runner loses Pass and gains both Dump Off and Nerves of Steel in return; and the Blitzer gains Nerves of Steel for free.
Interesting idea with NoS on everyone... though I'd consider your new Relentless on people too (if any teams say 'relentless' to me it would be the undead teams)
Union: Following the commercial reformation of the NAF in 2489, and tired of being trampled in the annual rush for silverware (literally, in some cases), representatives of the largest Halfling and Ogre teams resolved to form a combined team franchise, resulting in one of the more ludicrous sights in Bloodbowl history. Not always an easy alliance, and with no small amount of grudges borne, Union teams are among the most unpredictable sides to take the field. Halfling Runners undergo no change, and keep their half price masterchef; however, they gain 0-4 lonerless Ogre Throwers with SP access (in place of the Trees) at 140k apiece. More competitive? potentially; Hilarious? Only when your cage isn't being peppered by airborne halflings after all your rerolls have changed sides... Essentially I feel that Goblins have the secret weapon USP, and halflings could use their own. Making them the TTM specialists seems like it's very in character with the reroll theft and the old school halfling style without relying too heavily on inducements.
This I don't like. The ogres do have their selling point - the only team who can bring a large number of big guys. And the halflings already have the best TTM game going, maybe you just need a couple of slight buffs to them (maybe a couple of AG4 "landing specialists"?) to make it better.

Reason: ''
Stunty Cup: NAFC 2014, WISB IV
Most TDs: Cambridge Doubles 2011, Carrot Crunch VI, Boudica Bowl
Wooden Spoon: STABB Cup 2
User avatar
spubbbba
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2267
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: York

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by spubbbba »

I don’t think the 2nd edition rotters bear much resemblance to what we have now, they were pretty much a decayed selection of players from other teams.
But if you lose chaos and undead as well as nerfing dwarfs and orcs then the crp version of nurgle will be easily the most dangerous bashing team.

I think your changes to dwarfs will make them even less interesting as they now worse at passing than Khemri since all players have AG2 on top of the negative passing rule. Dwarfs have great dexterity so I don’t see them as being worse than humans at picking up or handing off the ball. Equally I can’t see them nimbly slipping through defensive lines just because they are a little shorter than a human.
Dodging into a cage on an unmodified 4+ is pretty nasty when you can do it with ST3 players with guard.

Reason: ''
My past and current modelling projects showcased on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Sandwich wrote:As you seem to be moving away from GW names, these [Skaven] should probably be renamed as something ratty.
Nope - Skaven were called Skaven in 2Ed. The only team in the 12 I made up were Union Teams.
Interesting idea with NoS on everyone [on the Khemri Roster]... though I'd consider your new Relentless on people too (if any teams say 'relentless' to me it would be the undead teams)
True, but then I look at Relentless as being effectively equivalent to 1AV. It differs in its relationship with Claw, and in that if you don't break armour you don't get stunned. So to add Relentless to the runner, I'd want to take something away, and with MA or AV the obvious choices... not really doable.
This I don't like. The ogres do have their selling point - the only team who can bring a large number of big guys. And the halflings already have the best TTM game going, maybe you just need a couple of slight buffs to them (maybe a couple of AG4 "landing specialists"?) to make it better.
Interesting. I feel like 0-4 lonerless Ogres with P access, 0-16 Halflings as they are and a half price chef keep the best of both rosters. The AG4 halfling idea doesn't do it for me, I'm afraid. In the same way that I don't think AG4 humans is a workable solution to their catcher problem (such that they have one).
spubbbba wrote:I don’t think the 2nd edition rotters bear much resemblance to what we have now, they were pretty much a decayed selection of players from other teams.
But if you lose chaos and undead as well as nerfing dwarfs and orcs then the crp version of nurgle will be easily the most dangerous bashing team.
Yeah? I'm not sure the loss of the Troll and +10k blitzers hurts Orcs all that much, and Khemri aren't weakened really. But I take your point. I guess I got lazy. Do you have any suggestions?
spubbbba wrote:I think your changes to dwarfs will make them even less interesting as they now worse at passing than Khemri since all players have AG2 on top of the negative passing rule. Dwarfs have great dexterity so I don’t see them as being worse than humans at picking up or handing off the ball. Equally I can’t see them nimbly slipping through defensive lines just because they are a little shorter than a human.
Okay, I hear that. The -1pass part of Shorty hurts too much. So if I made that change, would that bend back towards a more interesting play?

Then, is going to 0-4 blitzers and dropping to 60k linemen at 4329 Shorty, Relentless GS/AS a nerf too far? Yeah, so it's totally rewriting Dwarf teams, but I don't mind that. I quite like the idea of slow, clumsy, but insanely robust and potentially lethal cage breakers. It would also mean the blitzers dropping to MA5, I suspect, but they're going to be your killers.
spubbbba wrote:Dodging into a cage on an unmodified 4+ is pretty nasty when you can do it with ST3 players with guard.
I'm not sure 4+ dodging is as good as you're making out there, spubbbbs ;) But add in break tackle and I can start to see your point. Then again, that's two skills to go Guard/BT for any of their players (except the runner, for whom Guard is a double that's might be better spent on Dodge), and it'd mean neither of a player's first two skills are spent on Tackle, Mighty Blow or Piling On. Is that more boring, really?

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
User avatar
spubbbba
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2267
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: York

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by spubbbba »

I quite like the idea of rotters being made up of decayed players from various races. So you could have the base rotters as being humans and apply the same penalties to dwarfs, elves and orcs (-1 MA, lose skills but gain decay and possible FA or disturbing presence) and do the same to any players you recruit. I can see the warriors staying as they are champions of nurgle and maybe the beast too. Keeping their stats the same is much simpler and easier to balance but that’s not the 2nd edition way. It had more book keeping and random tables but also more flavour too.

I know Dwarfs get a lot of criticism for being dull and 1 dimensional, but the trouble is they don’t have much choice. With the lowest average MA in the game and 2nd lowest AG then they can’t do much else aside from forming a slow cage and grinding up the pitch.

So I think reducing them all to AG2 means the chances of them dodging, doing a passing play or anything more interesting goes down more than a normal dwarf team. I’m sure Heff would hate the relentless rule too as it halves the chances of getting a casualty on them.

Blockers seem to be a major issue with dwarfs so you could make them a 0-4 positional and introduce cheap 5/3/2/9 thick skull G access linemen for 50K or nerf the blockers but make runners 0-4. I quite like the idea of slayers losing block and G access but gaining Agility access just for fun.

Well they would only be doing that dodge to hit the ball carrier and with a re-roll it’s 3 in 4 odds whilst with BT or AG3 it’s 8 in 9. I do think a team of low AV ST3 stunties could be interesting though, maybe gnomes.

Reason: ''
My past and current modelling projects showcased on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

So, I've made a pdf. Who doesn't love pdfs? Nobody doesn't, that's who!

http://www.filedropper.com/alt3rd

I've put the guff from my first post in there, plus some actual rosters. I've added Chaos Dwarf, Cultist, Norse and Vampire Teams as Old World Expansion sides, and Amazon, Ape and Slann rosters in the New World, with Krok teams to come.

Amazon teams go to 4 Catchers and take the 8237 catch, dodge statline from the CRP human roster. Linewomen go to 60k and gain normal A access. Throwers get free A access, Blitzers become Blockers and gain a free +AV and A access, but lose block for stand firm (considered juggernaut or tackle instead, still think they are potentially good alternatives).
Ape teams are fundamentally unchanged from the discussion on last month's three die block podcast
Chaos Dwarf teams go to 0-6 4329 block, shorty, relentless GS/APM Dwarf Blocker at 70k, similar to that from the original dwarf roster. Bullcentaurs gain relentless in place of thick skull.
Cultist (nee "Khorne") teams make full use of relentless skill, with linemen losing P access -1AV and gaining relentless for no price change. Runners and the Minotaur get relentless in place of regeneration, and Blitzers gain relentless in return for -AV.
Norse teams gain normal P access on Linemen in return for 10k increase, and gain P access on Blitzers for free. Ulfwereners and human runners are out, but 0-2 CRP Werewolves are added as standard to accompany the Yhetee clawfest.
Slann teams get -10k Blitzers and lose access to their big guy
Vampire teams gain the relentless and thrall skills on linemen at no additional cost.

Krok teams... don't know yet. Essentially Lizardmen with a bunch of Prehensile Tail... Snake Sanders has to come from somewhere, right?

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
Ullis
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 11:31 am
Location: Finland

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Ullis »

Relentless is just too powerful. Only 1 in 12 chance of casualty! Maybe this could work in some rare instances but only when say, paired with Decay so when the casualty does happen, it hurts more.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

I don't intuitively feel it's any more powerful than +AV, though. Essentially I feel it's slighly worse in all cases except vs Claw, when it's slightly better.

Look at it this way: going from AV8 to AV7 plus Relentless means your chances of suffering a CAS fall from 4.63% to 3.47%; but your armour will fail 41.67% of the time as opposed to 27.78% of the time, so you're at greater risk of ending up face down for tracts of the game.

I think looking at the odds does highlight that dwarves can't have AV9 and Relentless though - that's far too good (I'd never looked at the figures before). What's interesting though is that AV7 and Regen and AV7 and relentless have an equal chance of landing a lasting injury, so it's not as straight a swap as I thought once apoths and SPPs are factored in. So perhaps the Khornealike Cult team I've suggested could lose the rostered apoth to balance things up a bit.

Granted too, it's probably not a ST skill and should be very careful doled out. As an E skill does it have merit?

If not I'll bin it. After all it was initially to counteract part of the stunty neg for dwarves, and bringing in Shorty has achieved that. Perhaps Thick Skull was a better devised skill than I gave it credit for :)

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
Juriel
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:55 am

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

First, Filedropper link doesn't seem to work, so I cannot check all the changes - just going by what's been listed in this thread.

Too much Relentless going around. I like its effect on certain players, but don't think it should be used with as wide a brush as it is now. Thick Skull should stay, because it's a lot more descriptive, and easier to apply (modifying every single damage roll is more hassle than only worrying about it on a roll of 8 ).

I don't like the name changes. Gutter Runners are iconic, Skaven Runners are not. Not to mention Troll becoming Troll Blocker is just a totally needless distinction - are there other kind of trolls for players to even worry about?

Dwarf: I really don't think there's any place for the Dwarf team, if you're going that far in changing them. These Dwarf changes make their biggest problem, being boring, even worse. Everyone would rather just pick Chaos Dwarves. Easiest fix? Just use the CD roster, call them Dwarves, call Bull Centaurs Deathrollers, and Hobgobbos Runners.

Norse: Need their cheap linemen, putting P access on them just to hike up their price messes them up.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Yeah, fair enough. I think having looked at the numbers, Relentless is far more powerful than I originally figured, so stripping out a little is probably a good call.

I certainly am not intending to make the dwarfs more boring. I was hoping to achieve something more in line with the changes to the Elves, Chaos, Humans in the file - please do take a look at those. I guess I've kind of lost my way with the dwarfs. What I wanted to do was find a way to make them more fun and interesting... 432X Stunty (or effects similar to stunty) feels intuitively like a good way to do that. Perhaps I'm overlooking Wrestle as a skill option. But then the cage breaking ramifications are even more powerful.

I suppose it's back to the drawing board with dwarfs, and really going carefully with Relentless (or just leaving it as a renaming of Thick Skull) is the way forward. I would like to be more creative with the Rotter teams in line with spubbba's suggestion, but I'm not feeling inspired with that right now. Let's step back to the core 12 (I'll try to upload the pdf directly here) and I'll try to get a nice balance there before going back to the expansions :)

Thanks for chipping in so far, guys. Really appreciate the feedback!

Edit: pdf of core team rosters added to OP (v1.2). Have adjusted naming convention and returned to the dwarfs for another look as per feedback. Relentless may make it to expansion Cult teams, where I think it fits nicely, but primary concern is the 12 core teams, so I've left it out for now at least.

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
Juriel
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:55 am

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

Okay, I'll look at these in the order they show up in the PDF...

Chaos: Ah, default Chaos Pact replaces Chaos, I approve.

Dark Elf: Regular DE that only get 2 Blitzers and whose linemen get replaced by Pro line-elves. Helps brings them in line, but they're still plenty strong. I think DE should have pricier rerolls, since they're not exactly good at working for the common good.

Dwarves: I see what you're doing with Shorty, but I don't think that kind of an effect (dodge into cage with Guard, dodge in to hit ball-carrier) is what dwarves should be about, and no-one is going to make any use of it anyway.

Elf: Woodie nerf, I approve. It may feel like going too far, with Wardancers losing MA, and only starting with Leap/SS, but I think it lines up with the rest of the teams. No-one on the team starting with Block instantly also elevates DE in comparison, while keeping these Elves still the best passing play option (and cheaper linemen/throwers keeps them within budget easier).

Goblin: I suppose Cheat! is a buff of some sort to Secret Weapon? Because it has to be, or Goblins are still just plain bad.

Human: Are suddenly in the top teams, with their ST3 Catchers! Lack of ST4, and AG3 all over still limits their options when against the specialists, which should work out.

Orcs: Are still amazing. +10k on the Blitzer cost, and loss of Troll + Gobbos doesn't really weaken them. Just pointing that out.

Rotters: Nurgle, with regular M access on the Rotters for +10k to price and Pests lose S access. Which might actually balance out nicely.

Skaven: No changes, which in this environment makes them the absolutely best team out there for winning matches. You have also marked M into both columns for linerats.

Skeleton: A nerfed Khemri, come now. Skeletons need Thick Skull, or they will leave the pitch in a hurry, which then totally breaks any kind of Khemri positioning. Nerves of Steel is just as much of a cruel joke as Pass ever was, only now it is on everyone. The suggested AV8 + Break Tackle Tomb Guardian approach would make this team different and interesting, while this just leaves me cold.

Underworld: Weaker than Skaven, even with the mutations, need some small kind of a buff.

Union: Stronger than a regular Halfling team for running, but with much worse TTM options. Bottom of the pile, but could be interesting when Ogres are supported by players that everyone won't get 3d against.

Top teams: Orc, DE, Skaven, Human. In that order.

Reason: ''
User avatar
Shteve0
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2479
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 10:15 am
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Shteve0 »

Juriel - good points, and thanks for chipping in again. Awesome work. I'm going to focus on the negatives, because focussing on the positives is twattish :P
Juriel wrote:Dark Elf: Regular DE that only get 2 Blitzers and whose linemen get replaced by Pro line-elves. Helps brings them in line, but they're still plenty strong. I think DE should have pricier rerolls, since they're not exactly good at working for the common good.
Done. I get the rationale, and I like it.
Juriel wrote:Dwarves: I see what you're doing with Shorty, but I don't think that kind of an effect (dodge into cage with Guard, dodge in to hit ball-carrier) is what dwarves should be about, and no-one is going to make any use of it anyway.
I'd still like to rewrite dwarves. Any suggestions? I don't like them as they are, really slow and st3 and blackle and grindy is so damn awful...
Juriel wrote:Goblin: I suppose Cheat! is a buff of some sort to Secret Weapon? Because it has to be, or Goblins are still just plain bad.
Sure, why not? So instread of just a renaming, Cheat!s don't count towards the minimum 11 set up for a drive, but do count towards the maximum. Note too that the trolls don't have loner. It's not a "fix", because I like the tiers, but maybe it's an improvement?
Juriel wrote:Orcs: Are still amazing. +10k on the Blitzer cost, and loss of Troll + Gobbos doesn't really weaken them. Just pointing that out.
Quite right, too. I'm thinking Troll comes back, drop to 2 blitzers. 8 positionals plus big guy is enough for any team - and while I want humans and Orcs to be top level, I don't think they should be there by much.
Juriel wrote:Rotters: Nurgle, with regular M access on the Rotters for +10k to price and Pests lose S access. Which might actually balance out nicely.
Yeah, I screwed up. Rotters actually have M access normal in CRP - and all the prices I gave them are wrong. Only change I'd make at this stage to CRP is S access to doubles on runners. That said, I really like spubbbba's concept, I just can't yet work out how to make it work as a roster...
Juriel wrote:Skaven: No changes, which in this environment makes them the absolutely best team out there for winning matches. You have also marked M into both columns for linerats.
I'm open to hearing suggestions here, and you're right. Not being an experienced Skaven player here, I don't have a solution. My immediate suggestions would be +10k Gutter Runners. That said, the fluff says that M-access is big. Can I encroach on that without screwing Underworld?
Juriel wrote:Skeleton: A nerfed Khemri, come now. Skeletons need Thick Skull, or they will leave the pitch in a hurry, which then totally breaks any kind of Khemri positioning. Nerves of Steel is just as much of a cruel joke as Pass ever was, only now it is on everyone. The suggested AV8 + Break Tackle Tomb Guardian approach would make this team different and interesting, while this just leaves me cold.
I have another idea: take the same roster and replace Regen with Relentless, and drop the skellies to MA5. Better?
Juriel wrote:Underworld: Weaker than Skaven, even with the mutations, need some small kind of a buff.
Why? They're weak, but they're different. I don't feel the need to bring the bottom teams up, just the top teams down.
Juriel wrote:Union: Stronger than a regular Halfling team for running, but with much worse TTM options. Bottom of the pile, but could be interesting when Ogres are supported by players that everyone won't get 3d against.
Much worse TTM options??? 4 x AG 2 TTM players with P-access and Strong Arm on normals, PLUS no loner? WTF??? ;) :P

Reason: ''
League and tournament hosting, blogging and individual forums - all totally free. For the most immersive tabletop sports community experience around, check out theendzone.co
Juriel
Experienced
Experienced
Posts: 129
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:55 am

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Juriel »

Ah, I assumed you wanted to balance the playing field, not just tone some teams down.
Shteve0 wrote:I'd still like to rewrite dwarves. Any suggestions? I don't like them as they are, really slow and st3 and blackle and grindy is so damn awful...
Replace with Chaos Dwarves. They have more weaknesses, but also more speed, making them more interesting to play against. Drop down something to bring their top-tier status down some, like lose Tackle and M access from the Dwarves. Reflavor Bull Centaurs as Deathrollers.

Anything else I've theorybowled just hasn't really worked while still feeling dwarfy enough.
I'm thinking Troll comes back, drop to 2 blitzers.
It's true that it's the 4 Orc Blitzers that make up for their otherwise weak speed, and are the ones specializing on the team. I'd like to see where Orcs place without even giving them the Troll. Because Lineorcs are still totally awesome for their price.
Not being an experienced Skaven player here, I don't have a solution. My immediate suggestions would be +10k Gutter Runners.
Skaven are a bit up-and-down with their match luck, but with everyone else at the top coming down a bit, leaving Skaven as is will make them comparatively damn strong. You could cut away the M access, leaving it the sole domain of Underworld. I'm having a hard time seeing anything else to change that wouldn't mess with them too much (because while losing mutations would hurt, it won't change their basic play, just the extremes of it).
I have another idea: take the same roster and replace Regen with Relentless, and drop the skellies to MA5. Better?
As a sometime Khemri coach, I'd say that's even worse. :p Not sure why you gotta mess with Khemri, who are already at the bottom of tier 1 teams - just losing Decay would make them presumably alright for this new, lower-powered environment.
Much worse TTM options??? 4 x AG 2 TTM players with P-access and Strong Arm on normals, PLUS no loner? WTF??? ;) :P
Halfling Trees don't have Loner either, and AG doesn't matter for TTM, because it can never be accurate anyway. And Trees already start with Strong Arm. So advantage: Tree. Just saying, TTM is a big thing for flings.

Reason: ''
User avatar
spubbbba
Legend
Legend
Posts: 2267
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: York

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by spubbbba »

I do think Dwarfs get too much of a hard time for being broken and dull. Firstly I don’t think they are all that strong, especially at higher TV, Orcs have pretty much all their strengths and less of their weaknesses but never seem to get the same amount of complaints.
Secondly the only way they can competitively play is by using the slow grind. Getting a 2 turn touchdown versus a full strength opponent is very difficult, even scoring in 4 turns often require a lot of risks.

The area they do have a justifiable complaint against is versus stunties and amazons. With Amazons that is down to their roster being a horrendous mess so I’d rather change them. But the stunties have life tough enough already so a bit less blockle in the team may not be a bad thing. Mind you there is a danger you make rookie wood elves even better since they can start with 6 dodge (including 2 blodge) players.

What Dwarfs are famous for in being great at defence, but I feel they suck at this since their slow speed makes it very hard for them to reposition. I’d like to make them better at this.

So here is my very rough team proposal, zero playtesting done and mostly just random ideas.

Deathroller – drop from the team, either make it a star replacing Zara or Morg or make a Dwarf Warhammers team made up of linemen, (see below), 0-2 runners and rostered secret weapons with 50K bribes.

Blockers – make them 0-2 or 0-4.
Blitzers – leave as is
Slayers – leave as is or swap block for juggernaut. In this case possibly lose G access on normals and gain agility access.
Runners – leave as is or make 0-4.

Linemen – New 0-16 players
5/3/2/9 - thick skull, passblock – G and S access – 60K
Other options are adding shadowing, giving them AG3 and AV8 or losing S access. If blockers are 0-4 then they could lose S access, but without any ST4 players they do need guard, I just don’t want them to end up like Orcs where you can have a full team of positionals. If runners are 0-4 then they wouldn’t need AG3 as that would give the team a little more speed and agility.

Reason: ''
My past and current modelling projects showcased on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter.
Afroman
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:32 am

Re: ALT3RD Rulebook

Post by Afroman »

First of all I want to say that I always like to read about theory bowl. And I appreciate people that takes time to write interesting things about it. So keep up the good work Shteve0.

I really don't care what happens to most of the teams. So I'll jump straight down to one I do care about.

Halflings/Union:
When you are playing a team this "bad" you need a good fluff. And The Union thing doesn't do it for me.
Keep the trees, ditch the Ogres(extra speed and the best nega trait in the game but the trees are just more unique and themed)

How about this:
"Following the commercial reformation of the NAF in 2489, and tired of being seen as the bottom scrap of BloodBowl, representatives of the largest Halfling teams resolved to create "Hell Kitchens", an extensive training organisation where halflings with talent could hone their skills and be "prepared" for the dangers of the pitch. Given that halflings are everything but adventurous, not many players were produced by these training facilities. But those that were actually extended the ALE(Average Life Expectancy) of a halfling with 7.4 seconds"

Changes:
New (Hell's)Chef:buff
Roll at the beginning of each half.
First half--no change same as now.
Second half--You can choose to either roll as now or get as many rerolls as you rolled fails on the first half.
"Hell's Kitchens maintain a list of above average chefs that allways perform, well, above average. Gone are the days when a Halfling Coach wasted his money on a wannabe-Chef"
This means that it's no longer possible to pay for the chef and not get anything for it. If you roll three fails on the first half then you get three rerolls on the second.
If you get roll one fail on the first you can get one reroll automatically(or you can choose to roll) and so on...




Skills:
Take Root:
Allways roll a dice before performing an action with a tree. If not rooted then it will take root on the roll of "1". If rooted it will unroot itself on a roll of "6".
"Trees have never been quick to learn anything, Their own life rythm is a proof of that. That's why the only thing the Hell's Kitchens TIP(TreeMan Improvement Program) manage to teach these walking lumbers are to actually try to de-root themselves!"

Surefeet: in addition to it's normal function, it now also serves as a personal reroll on landing rolls.
"The basic training program that all the halfling have to undergo has one and one mantra only: A slow Fling is a dead Fling."
Right Stuff: In addition to it's normal function, a right stuff player nullifies the (opponents)use of tackle when being blocked.
"Seeing as the difficulties Halflings team have had with dwarves on the field, a special mandatory course is has been added to the Hell's Kitchen Basic Training Program. The name? Five ways to NOT fall down when facing a dwarf".

Halfling new positionals:(All flings have Dodge,Stunty, Right Stuff)
0-2 Trained Halfling runner: 5236 sidestep,sprint 60K
"These flings are known for being afraid of, well, anything. With their own fear(and of course the mandatory promise of a feast at the end of the game) as motivation, Hell's Kitchen managed to create a player that will go the distance in order to get away of the opposing players"

0-2 Trained Halfling Thief: 5236 sidestep, stripball 70K
"Have you ever heard of a halfling thief? of course you have. Have you ever seen one? Of course not. Behind that docile, gentle faced nature of them lures in some rare cases a easy-to-dismiss, quickhanded bun-snatcher. Those that find their way to Hell's kitchen learn to use their skills of evasiveness and what's-yours-it's-mine-iness on the field"

I believe these changes would make Halflings more interesting to play without moving them from their tier.
Some of these changes affect goblins aswell but that is just a neccessary evil :P


/Afroman

Reason: ''
Post Reply