NTBB2.0/2014

[Fassbinder75]

I would hazard that if you're not passing with High Elves, you should be playing Skaven or Dark Elves. You're paying the for the AG4 you should utilise it to compensate for the fact that you'll likely get beat up and need to keep a fresh supply of skilled players.

[MattDakka]

I would hazard that if you're not passing with High Elves, you should be playing Skaven or Dark Elves. You're paying the for the AG4 you should utilise it to compensate for the fact that you'll likely get beat up and need to keep a fresh supply of skilled players.

I play with Skaven and Dark Elves as well and they are similar, yet different from High Elves.
Skaven are cheaper, may have access to clawpomb and very easy 1TTD, Dark Elves have a better low TV running game (thanks to 4 Blodging Blitzers, 1-2 Witch Elves) than High Elves but at high TV their lower MA makes scoring with them a bit harder than with HE Catchers.
AG 4 is mainly used for easy repositioning and simple ball handling (pick ups, hand offs), not for passing, if you do not have to.

[babass]

PS - that said, this has caused me to think. Perhaps High Elf Throwers should have been given accurate rather than sure hands. After all, High Elfs are about the Throwers.

+1
or why not Strong Arm



pro elves catchers do start with the best-"catching" double skill (nerves of steel)
why not seeing the high elves throwers with a "passing" double skill as well ?

[Jas1279]

Prevalent doesn't equal more winning or best, though.
Passing is an unconservative thing to do, even with HE, the fact they have a thrower doesn't mean they should rely heavily on passing game.
I guess that giving to HE the best pass game was the designers' intent, but competitive approach avoids passing whenever possible, for the reasons I explained.

ok ok Matt, we have your argument coming across loud and clear:

"everyone who ever passes in blood bowl is 'wrong', especially people who play elves and pass, they are all doing it wrong as they should be running the ball. Therefore there is no harm in crippling the high elf thrower to kill off their passing game as high elves should be running the ball an never passing (unless they get into real trouble, rerolled 2+'s are highly unconservative, etc etc)" We got it already!

I just don't recall spotting that intent in the NTBB spec.

And per other contributions here and stats from UKBBL and FOL a good number of elf and high elf coaches *do* play a ranged passing game (maybe they like the thematic element and/or maybe just a little variety in their games/races).... so perhaps not killing it off could be considered

[plasmoid]

Hi Jas,

I just don't recall spotting that intent in the NTBB spec.

You are exactly right. The intent of the change was not to completely transform the High Elf play style. I'll leave that to individual coaches. All in all you make a good case, so no reason to bicker about details. In other words, I stand corrected.

NTBB2015 will contain hopefully just a few changes, and High Elfs are likely to be one of them. As far as I can tell, you're positive towards Accurate as a stronger long-passing skill than Safe Throw. So that's what I'm leaning towards. Babass, I can't give Strong Arm, because I want the advantage to fade as the team/thrower develops.

Jas, I know you've been discussing this somewhere else also. Perhaps this is where the other High Elf coaches you mention are also to be found? Could you ask them if in their experience Accurate would be stronger than Safe Throw?

Thanks for the feedback
Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

As far as I can tell, you're positive towards Accurate as a stronger long-passing skill than Safe Throw. So that's what I'm leaning towards. Babass, I can't give Strong Arm, because I want the advantage to fade as the team/thrower develops.

I'm not sure why you're changing it at all, tbh. Accurate is a stronger skill for all passing (including from within TZs, for example), not just long passing. Safe Throw is better for long passes and the use drops off as other skills are taken. I think it might be worth looking at some other change. Lots of people will take accurate, but if a player has accurate already how many are going to take Safe Throw?

[Jas1279]

Could you ask them if in their experience Accurate would be stronger than Safe Throw?

We have a good number of high elf coaches in UKBBL and a fair few multi-race very experienced players, most of the above so far is based on ad-hoc chats and trawling our stats archive but I'll try and solicit some direct feedback.

As far as I can tell, you're positive towards Accurate as a stronger long-passing skill than Safe Throw. So that's what I'm leaning towards.

Personally I'm neutral-ish between the two, in my book (and looking at common high elf thrower builds for teams that do like to throw) the combo aimed for to support a longer passing game is <pass> (safe throw) (accurate) and work for a double for (strong arm).

Currently two of these are in the base build (pass and safe throw) so the first two sought on leveling are accurate and (fishing for a double) strong arm

Hence if the order of these is changed it's no long term hassle as you can just grab safe throw and (crossed fingers) strong arm early on.

It's if any of those 4 are displaced for a non throwing-complimentary skill the problem occurs.

Is it an advantage to get accurate ahead of safe throw? ...maybe it is. But it's not disruptive to their long term build!

I'll see what feedback I can gather

[Jas1279]

I'm not sure why you're changing it at all, tbh. Accurate is a stronger skill for all passing (including from within TZs, for example), not just long passing. Safe Throw is better for long passes and the use drops off as other skills are taken. I think it might be worth looking at some other change. Lots of people will take accurate, but if a player has accurate already how many are going to take Safe Throw?

well I'd be 'tempted' to look at taking safe throw if accurate was a starting skill....

but yeah I think what i was trying to say is 'no change' would be fine, if there must be a change please can we not break the high elf throwers long term development in the process (so accurate would be 'ok').

other options ofc are possible for an early boost I suppose but none seem obvious. The current situation where they simply 'take a while to get going at low TV' isn't the worst it could be.

Also high elf catchers as they stand are stronger in resurrection style tournaments than long leagues as you can take more risks with them so worth considering that high elves already have a mini low TV boost in some formats that they need to get over in league play....

[dode74]

well I'd be 'tempted' to look at taking safe throw if accurate was a starting skill....

Once you start adding positive modifiers to the throw the odds of throwing a non-natural 1 are diminished, meaning the skill's utility is diminished. At AG 4 with no skills it's only useful on a 2-3; with one skill it's only useful on a 2; if you're lucky enough to get strong arm then it becomes worthless for holding fumbles and then solely becomes a means to throw over the opposition head. If that's a good enough reason (and I don't play enough HiE to say either way) then great, but it seems to me that not having it as a starting skill greatly diminishes its utility.

[MattDakka]

Prevalent doesn't equal more winning or best, though.
Passing is an unconservative thing to do, even with HE, the fact they have a thrower doesn't mean they should rely heavily on passing game.
I guess that giving to HE the best pass game was the designers' intent, but competitive approach avoids passing whenever possible, for the reasons I explained.

ok ok Matt, we have your argument coming across loud and clear:

"everyone who ever passes in blood bowl is 'wrong', especially people who play elves and pass, they are all doing it wrong as they should be running the ball. Therefore there is no harm in crippling the high elf thrower to kill off their passing game as high elves should be running the ball an never passing (unless they get into real trouble, rerolled 2+'s are highly unconservative, etc etc)" We got it already!

I just don't recall spotting that intent in the NTBB spec.

And per other contributions here and stats from UKBBL and FOL a good number of elf and high elf coaches *do* play a ranged passing game (maybe they like the thematic element and/or maybe just a little variety in their games/races).... so perhaps not killing it off could be considered

My argument is that, if you really want to improve the HE Thrower, he should swap Safe Throw with either Accurate (more fitting thematically) or Sure Hands ("generic" skill used by running ball carriers and dedicated throwers as well, less flashy but more frequently used in a match).
Safe Throw is worse than Accurate for the best Thrower player.

pro elves catchers do start with the best-"catching" double skill (nerves of steel)

Actually they would be way better starting with Dodge, a must-skill for them (protection from blocks and improved dodging reliability).
NoS is a skill marginally used.

it seems to me that not having it as a starting skill greatly diminishes its utility.

I agree, Safe Throw is one of those skills you wouldn't pick, but you use just because you start with them.

As far as I can tell, you're positive towards Accurate as a stronger long-passing skill than Safe Throw.

Yes.

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,

I'm not sure why you're changing it at all, tbh. Accurate is a stronger skill for all passing (including from within TZs, for example), not just long passing. Safe Throw is better for long passes and the use drops off as other skills are taken. I think it might be worth looking at some other change. Lots of people will take accurate, but if a player has accurate already how many are going to take Safe Throw?

But which change, that is the big question.
I'd prefer one that does something tangible for the early high elf team, without translating well to developed play.

Actually, someone on another forum asked: Why not just add Accurate on top?
The thought is beginning to grow on me, frankly.
It would make the High Elf signature player a 3-skill player, just like Wardancers and Witches.
It doesn't get rid of their current signature skill.
As for the long term thing, maybe the boost isn't that big. Lots of coaches, like MattDakka, WHO play competitively try to avoid passing, so a good thrower isn't all that. There is a reason the range-ruler is nicknamed lose-o-meter (and other similar Things).

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

Seems a reasonable thing to do, although it makes for early blodge throwers (which doesn't seem too bad for a signature player). What about cost? I've not looked at the numbers at all but the cost would have to go up (even if only 10k), so would that have an effect on the 1000TV starting roster?

[plasmoid]

I'd honestly be inclined towards the big discount - e.g. getting it for free.
The High Elf roster is already quite expensive, and making the thrower even more expensive would just mean that we'd acchieved nothing.
IMO.

Cheers
Martin

[Jas1279]

Lovely as it sounds the only slight caution I'd sound is high elves are generally:

1-able to skill themselves up to higher SPP levels
2-often constrained for skill choices only having 6 slots

So simply adding it may well translate into a small extra buff at higher TV too (ie spare slot to pop leadership etc in). However I'm just flagging it to note the effect, the impact on higher TV games will likely be low as the extra skill is likely to end up being a protective or other 'nice to have' one rather than a game changing one.

EDIT as an afterthought if you were simply adding a 3rd skill maybe that swings the case back towards sure hands?

Later in development passing coaches will still be filling the slots as they always would have been at the rate they would have been (ie accurate, spinning for strong arm, block, dodge etc). However the thrower picks up an extra 'nice to have' sidetrack utility skill on the side *without* it blocking one of the six development slots he needs to be built up to his full 'ballistic platform' existing potential at higher TV.

Giving high elf throwers a free sure hands skill is probably is less of a late game buff than giving them an extra 'free choice' skill slot?

Just musing here...

[fanglord13]

You lost me with the latest changes. Too much change for changes sake and has really gone away from the initial idea. Bit of a shame