Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Even with the name changes, they still feel like "bolt ons", as they don't have the same feel as the original roster. At the very least, if they're going to be named after ape characters, they need Extra Hands.
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- Joemanji
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Fun, fluffy roster. I like it. Never going to perform though, as the team starts weak and has nowhere to build to.
By the way, your players are overcosted not undercosted.
The Ape Runner is poor value at 80K, let alone 90K. He is more equivalent to a Ghoul, and way worse than a Gutter Runner or Elf Catcher.
Same goes for every player on the team really. Thrower should be 60K, Gorillas perhaps 70K (or less!) Extra Hands is redundant on a Wild Animal, and Grab almost redundant in general. Balance this against WA being the worse negatrait by far and the Gorilla is significantly worse than a Black Orc.
Even the Lineman is pricey at 50K. Block and Dodge are the best skills in the game, explaining the cost of Norse and Amazon linos. Those players can and probably will use the skill on every interaction. Whereas it is literally impossible for an Ape team to have more than three players use their EH in a turn (pickup > pass > handoff), and if you are trying that every turn you have lost. Moreover, a good coach will be making only one ball handling roll per drive. The option to move the ball is good, but it is a definite plan B.
By the way, your players are overcosted not undercosted.
The Ape Runner is poor value at 80K, let alone 90K. He is more equivalent to a Ghoul, and way worse than a Gutter Runner or Elf Catcher.
Same goes for every player on the team really. Thrower should be 60K, Gorillas perhaps 70K (or less!) Extra Hands is redundant on a Wild Animal, and Grab almost redundant in general. Balance this against WA being the worse negatrait by far and the Gorilla is significantly worse than a Black Orc.
Even the Lineman is pricey at 50K. Block and Dodge are the best skills in the game, explaining the cost of Norse and Amazon linos. Those players can and probably will use the skill on every interaction. Whereas it is literally impossible for an Ape team to have more than three players use their EH in a turn (pickup > pass > handoff), and if you are trying that every turn you have lost. Moreover, a good coach will be making only one ball handling roll per drive. The option to move the ball is good, but it is a definite plan B.
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- Goblin Fancier
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
So what you're saying is that the roster is NOT broken or overly powerful? SCORE!
I'd like to hear more about how the Ape Runner is a poor value at 80k. Like a Ghoul? Yeah except he picks up and catches on a 2+, has an Apoth to fall back on and has the same skill access. That's a lot of ball movement potential hen most of the team picks up for a 2+ and can hand off for a 2+. Not quite Elf-like but potentially Elf-LITE.
I disagree that Wild Animal is the worst negatrait in the game. You never lose your tacklezones! I think having 5 of them is a lot different than having one big guy WA like we are used to because the team is going to play in a scrum and if one goes WA, he can still help his buddies with Guard or whatever.
Grab is excellent here as well because it keeps opponents next to the WAs who will keep their TZs even with a 1. It also helps the Wa roll keep being a 2+ instead of a 4+ because the Gorillas are in constant contact.
I think EA could work, even on the WA Gorilla. He still picks up the ball easily and is 4ST to start. I may try to develop one as a carrier. Plus, EA is on their for 'trait' purposes, like every Beastmn has Horns, though only ONE gets to use it a turn!
Thanks for the roster review and the thoughts! I'm thrilled to hear coaches do not think it is some overly power vanity project!
I'd like to hear more about how the Ape Runner is a poor value at 80k. Like a Ghoul? Yeah except he picks up and catches on a 2+, has an Apoth to fall back on and has the same skill access. That's a lot of ball movement potential hen most of the team picks up for a 2+ and can hand off for a 2+. Not quite Elf-like but potentially Elf-LITE.
I disagree that Wild Animal is the worst negatrait in the game. You never lose your tacklezones! I think having 5 of them is a lot different than having one big guy WA like we are used to because the team is going to play in a scrum and if one goes WA, he can still help his buddies with Guard or whatever.
Grab is excellent here as well because it keeps opponents next to the WAs who will keep their TZs even with a 1. It also helps the Wa roll keep being a 2+ instead of a 4+ because the Gorillas are in constant contact.
I think EA could work, even on the WA Gorilla. He still picks up the ball easily and is 4ST to start. I may try to develop one as a carrier. Plus, EA is on their for 'trait' purposes, like every Beastmn has Horns, though only ONE gets to use it a turn!
Thanks for the roster review and the thoughts! I'm thrilled to hear coaches do not think it is some overly power vanity project!
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- Joemanji
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Bless your sweet heart.
It really is quite simple. Dodging happens more than ball handling. A lot more. Ergo the ability to dodge well is more valuable for a player than the ability to handle the ball well.
Wrestle is a poor ball carrier skill.
Also, look at the other 80K Catcher type players : Gutter Runners, HE Catchers and Slann Catchers. All way, way, WAY better than the Ape Runner.
Apoth access is completely irrelevant to player costing.
1) You face a team stronger than you, and presumably with more blocker skills. Thus your Gorillas will spend a lot of time prone. How can five prone WAs all block or blitz from the turf? Ooops, look like they have lost their TZs after all. What of the opportunity cost of using your Blitz action just to stand one of them up, and the 1/6 chance of losing it anyway?
2) You face a team more agile than you. They don't stand next to any Gorillas. Grab doesn't work on blitzes, so this isn't going to help. Thus half your Gorillas don't move each turn, leaving the others more isolated and so easier to knock over.
Wild Animal is such a bad negatrait that the best coaches do not take a Minotaur or Rat Ogre in serious competition, whereas they will always take other big guys.
Yes. Anyone can make a roster than is either overly powerful or rubbish. That much is easy. What is valuable and interesting is creating a roster that fits into the existing framework of races to provide an interesting challenge at all levels. At the moment this roster is both weak in terms of ability to win games and fragile in that players will die very easily. Regardless of how good you want the team to be, this is a painful and frustrating combination, because as you lose matches you will also lose the ability to replace players.SunDevil wrote:So what you're saying is that the roster is NOT broken or overly powerful? SCORE!
Simple. Ghouls are 70K. They have the same statline and skill access. Dodge is functionally equivalent to EA + Wrestle in that they both have two components : protection from a block dice result and modification to an Agility roll. However, you dodge more than you ball handle. You can only possibly make one ball handling roll per turn with a player, and if you make 16 ball handling rolls in a game with every one of your Ape Runners you will lose and deservedly so. If you make 16 dodge rolls in game with a Ghoul you will probably lose too if we are honest, but it is definitely more useful than EA over the course of both of a game and a career.SunDevil wrote:I'd like to hear more about how the Ape Runner is a poor value at 80k. Like a Ghoul? Yeah except he picks up and catches on a 2+, has an Apoth to fall back on and has the same skill access. That's a lot of ball movement potential hen most of the team picks up for a 2+ and can hand off for a 2+. Not quite Elf-like but potentially Elf-LITE.
It really is quite simple. Dodging happens more than ball handling. A lot more. Ergo the ability to dodge well is more valuable for a player than the ability to handle the ball well.
Wrestle is a poor ball carrier skill.
Also, look at the other 80K Catcher type players : Gutter Runners, HE Catchers and Slann Catchers. All way, way, WAY better than the Ape Runner.
Apoth access is completely irrelevant to player costing.
What point a TZ if you spend half your actions doing nothing? The prime factor for managing WAs is using your Blitz action, but you only have one per turn. So either :SunDevil wrote:I disagree that Wild Animal is the worst negatrait in the game. You never lose your tacklezones! I think having 5 of them is a lot different than having one big guy WA like we are used to because the team is going to play in a scrum and if one goes WA, he can still help his buddies with Guard or whatever.
Grab is excellent here as well because it keeps opponents next to the WAs who will keep their TZs even with a 1. It also helps the Wa roll keep being a 2+ instead of a 4+ because the Gorillas are in constant contact.
1) You face a team stronger than you, and presumably with more blocker skills. Thus your Gorillas will spend a lot of time prone. How can five prone WAs all block or blitz from the turf? Ooops, look like they have lost their TZs after all. What of the opportunity cost of using your Blitz action just to stand one of them up, and the 1/6 chance of losing it anyway?
2) You face a team more agile than you. They don't stand next to any Gorillas. Grab doesn't work on blitzes, so this isn't going to help. Thus half your Gorillas don't move each turn, leaving the others more isolated and so easier to knock over.
Wild Animal is such a bad negatrait that the best coaches do not take a Minotaur or Rat Ogre in serious competition, whereas they will always take other big guys.
Horns is the prime reason the Chaos team is so weak. WA on a ball carrier is hard work, to be polite. You have 50% chance of not being able to move him every turn, the most important thing on your drive. Unless you blitz with him. But blitzing with your ball carrier is bad play. So maybe you waste your blitz action to just move him sometimes. But then you haven't blitzed!SunDevil wrote:I think EA could work, even on the WA Gorilla. He still picks up the ball easily and is 4ST to start. I may try to develop one as a carrier. Plus, EA is on their for 'trait' purposes, like every Beastmn has Horns, though only ONE gets to use it a turn!
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- Shteve0
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Largely agree with Joemanji's assessment, though not sure that the roster has nowhere to build to, just that it can't build to power skill combo spam easily since the first few picks are likely to go on bread and butter skills that already feature on stronger starting teams. The same can largely be said for a number of other rosters, however; vampires, choas, slann, pact and nurgle all fit into this category, for example.
The idea of the roster is that it's not capable of the specialist extremes of the top teams, so needs careful management and development - it's designed with universal skill defecit in mind. So yeah, it's suboptimal across the board, but the intention is that that's part of the coaching challenge, representing the overall wildness of the roster. There are lots of teams that perform at T1, and I don't feel any particular desire to add to that crowd... whereas the lower reaches of T1.5/T2 are pretty understocked.
Personally I'm still happier with an 80k runner than 90k, and (@SunDevil) I do honestly believe your local coaches are overestimating the strength of the roster in pushing for a tax on the runner and a nerf to the Orangutan. The Big Hand is an important part of his skill set and removing the G access is brutal in stymieing his development options, which runs totally counter to the intention.
Back to Joemanji, you make a really interesting point in comparing Wrestle+EA to Dodge in its functional behaviour. I'd never looked at it like that, but you might be on to something.
The idea of the roster is that it's not capable of the specialist extremes of the top teams, so needs careful management and development - it's designed with universal skill defecit in mind. So yeah, it's suboptimal across the board, but the intention is that that's part of the coaching challenge, representing the overall wildness of the roster. There are lots of teams that perform at T1, and I don't feel any particular desire to add to that crowd... whereas the lower reaches of T1.5/T2 are pretty understocked.
Personally I'm still happier with an 80k runner than 90k, and (@SunDevil) I do honestly believe your local coaches are overestimating the strength of the roster in pushing for a tax on the runner and a nerf to the Orangutan. The Big Hand is an important part of his skill set and removing the G access is brutal in stymieing his development options, which runs totally counter to the intention.
Back to Joemanji, you make a really interesting point in comparing Wrestle+EA to Dodge in its functional behaviour. I'd never looked at it like that, but you might be on to something.
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- Goblin Fancier
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Agree 100% with you there! I much prefer the Chimps as Blitzers (Leap, Strip Ball, etc.) and the LineApes as ballcarriers. They probably should be called "Chimpanzees" or Chimp Blitzers" or even "Chimp Safeties" not "Chimp Runners".Joemanji wrote:Wrestle is a poor ball carrier skill.
Also, you bring up a lot of good points about the Wild Animal, both in line blocking and as a potential ballcarrier. What they need is a combo of WA and RyS - 2+ to act with a buddy next to you, 4+ otherwise, always keep your TZs.
I look forward to trying them out. I do feel that local coaches have overestimated their on-pitch ability and hope to lower their costs again soon.
I'm with you 100%. I will be the guinea pig that plays the overly-nerfed roster for a season before they have the stats they need.Shteve0 wrote:Personally I'm still happier with an 80k runner than 90k, and (@SunDevil) I do honestly believe your local coaches are overestimating the strength of the roster in pushing for a tax on the runner and a nerf to the Orangutan. The Big Hand is an important part of his skill set and removing the G access is brutal in stymieing his development options, which runs totally counter to the intention.
Plus, Orang's actually HAVE Big Hands! Have you seen those things? IMMENSE!
I also agree with Shteve-O that the team does have somewhere to build for. Block, Guard, MiB for the Gorillas to help shore up the WA weakness, the above mentioned skills to make a nice ballhawk in the Chimp. A skill each for the LineApes (I think of them as Bonobos) could really help improve your offense - Sure Hands, Block, Wrestle, Fend, maybe a double or two. I look forward to trying them!
Just gotta finish painting my team...
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Cool, I hope you enjoy it and don't get too dispirited I'll be keeping the roster as is in the public versions for now, since nothing I've seen in play suggests they're overpowered (quite the opposite), and I think they represent a challenge to face and - even more so - to coach. As per the OP we trialled them in a long season last time out and I'm aware of at least one obblm league that's picked up the roster since (click here- they're at a W1 L2 after three games) plus other TT leagues without sites, so I think for now they'll benefit most from a stable roster until more league results are in to keep confusion to a minimum.SunDevil wrote:I look forward to trying them out. I do feel that local coaches have overestimated their on-pitch ability and hope to lower their costs again soon.
I will be the guinea pig that plays the overly-nerfed roster for a season before they have the stats they need.
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- Goblin Fancier
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Absolutely agree! Your roster is THE roster, ours is the 'chicken little' roster.
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
There needs to be a bombardier special player...everyone knows a monkey's penchant for flinging poo!
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Phro Spoo
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
8 months later...what do we know? How is it going? What stars are leagues using? Any Cockerel changes?
I did buy the plastic team.
I did buy the plastic team.
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
I did not play the team but l did play against them. Mass Wild Animal is a killer, basically once I had his Gorillas knocked down the odds took over and really prevented the coach from doing much. The team was piloted by a relatively new coach and he will probably end up with 4 wins in a 10 game season. They really feel like Vamps in a way, better than the tier 3s but not really at CP or Slann level. That's just my experience.
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Re: Apes of Wrath roster - discussion thread & star players
Love the Morg figure suggestion...that Ape is just badasss
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