A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

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SlannMann
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A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by SlannMann »

Hello. I have had an interest in Amphibians (particularly frogs) my whole life since before primary school. When I got into GW 40K in the early 90's and bought the Rouge Trader book I was very interested in the pictures I saw of the gun weilding space frogs called Slann but unfortunately GW had stopped selling them by that time. My friend is a big American Football fan and along with 40k got into Blood Bowl (2nd Ed at that time). I liked it but found it too long winded and thus didn't get interested in it until the 3rd Ed came out. During those years I played Dark Elf then Lizardmen. I got back into Blood Bowl last year after deciding to download the current LRB6 out of interest. Imagine my smile when I found out there was now a resurrected Slann team (I also liked how Norse have Werewolves too!) even though they appear to have been made as a bit of a joke team.
I am currently playing in a league (HDWSBBL) using a Slann team for the second time. Despite their lack of core ball handling and face smashing skills I still love them, however if they ever were to have a face lift then these are my thoughts on what I would like to see taken into consideration :

Catchers
If you look at all of the ST 2 or less positionals on all of the team rosters that have those players, you will see one of the fundamental rules of Blood Bowl. That rule is that if you are ST 2 or less you come with Dodge, the reasoning being that as you are weaker (and sometimes smaller) than most you learn to dodge out of the way of incoming aggression and have some sort of chance against 2-3 dice blocks. It is a basic fact of life. So how is it that the Slann catchers don't follow this rule, being also ST 2 and AV 7 just like Gutter Runners, Wood Elf Catchers and the like?!?! So I think they should be re-done to have Dodge as a third starting skill and have their price increased by 10k.

Blitzers
These are tricky little fellows aren't they, being among the most expensive at over 100k a piece and not coming with Block (as ALL other team Blitzers do) or any useful injury causing skill (Diving Tackle is debateable as it only works when someone decides to dodge out of your tackle zone and even then you may end up in the dirt instead of your opponent!). I do still like them and they are priced correctly, but they do need something. I think as they have the same AV and ST as the Linefrogs they should move the same and not be as fast as the lightly armoured Catchers. So I would take that point of MV and transfer it to AG, so then that way they can at least be good at leaping as the Catchers in order to make up for their lack of Blocking/ Blitzing ability (no Block) and how slow they can be to skill up. I feel then they would see more use on the pitch and as pretty much all positionals with ST 4 or higher (and obv no Block much like the Slann Blitzers), or AG 4+ (mainly Elves who also come with skills) are around 100k or more, their 110k price tag brings them more in line with these types of players. So my revised roster would look like this :

0-16
Linefrogs
6 3 3 8 Leap, Very Long Legs 60,000 GP

0-4 Catchers 7 2 4 7 Diving Catch, Dodge, Leap, Very Long Legs 90,000 GP

0-4 Blitzers 6 3 4 8 Diving Tackle, Jump Up, Leap, Very Long Legs 110,000 GP

0-1 Kroxigor 6 5 1 9 Loner, Bone Head, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail, Thick Skull 140,000 GP

0-8 Re-Roll counters 50,000 GP

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by Rolex »

Catchers with dodge at 90k would have a 10k discount. And they would not deserve it. I would gladly pay them 100k with dodge.
I would consider them unexpensive.

Blitzers at 110k with AG4 are ridiculously underpriced.
With 1 skill you have a guard that leaps in a cage at 2+. With AV 8.
They would be the best players in the game after a few skills (WD leap at 3+ and can't have S skills).
For a low price.
No player but the Vampire (which has enough problems of his own) has ag4 and S skills.
No st3 player can leap at 2+.

I think that such a team is very close to be the very best team in the game.

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by SlannMann »

I assume people have already seen this rule of thumb/ pattern? that GW have used, whether this is a right or good way of going about things I don't know, but it's how I came about my proposed re-pricing/ skilling the Slann.

Human Blitzer vs Norse Berserker
HB 7 3 3 8 Block 90k NB 6 3 3 7 Block, Frenzy, Jump Up 90k

Both are same price. In order to create the berserker GW have taken a HB and swapped a point of MV and AV for two skills - Frenzy and JU

Dark Elf Blitzer vs Witch Elf
B 7 3 4 8 Block 100k WE 7 3 4 7 Dodge, Frenzy, Jump Up 110k

To get a WE, take a B and swap Block for Dodge, a point of AV for a skill (Frenzy) and as she has a third skill and 10k GP more expensive as the B I can say that a skill equals 10k GP

Wood Elf are often said to be the best, or one of the best teams in BB, and while looking for something else I noticed their Catcher profile and you can have four of them (like the Slann Catchers)
8 2 4 7 Catch, Dodge, Sprint 90k

They have +1 MV on Slann Catchers and three skills (it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that sometimes Mutations and Extraordinary skills don't seem to add towards the cost of a player. So you could class VLL as their 3rd skill or not. In this case i'm not as how can a racial characteristic such as being born with VLL or Prehensile Tail be learned like side stepping someone? that's one of those debatable q's again). So using the above pattern I used the extra point of MV of the WEC to cover the 3rd skill of the SC (Dodge) and thus also priced him the same. I agree 100k for my improved Catchers would still be a fair price, but as said I am just going on the above pricing pattern that I see and have mentioned.
Rolex wrote:Blitzers at 110k with AG4 are ridiculously underpriced.
With 1 skill you have a guard that leaps in a cage at 2+. With AV 8.
They would be the best players in the game after a few skills (WD leap at 3+ and can't have S skills).
For a low price.
No player but the Vampire (which has enough problems of his own) has ag4 and S skills.
No st3 player can leap at 2+.

I think that such a team is very close to be the very best team in the game.
Yes they could BECOME the best players in the game but even if the Slann Blitzer took Guard straight away they are only ST3 and don't start with Block or Dodge (which WD's do, using them as an example as you have done) so are fairly easy to knock down or push back as any other ST 3 player. To have the BDG set up you obv need three skill rolls, while the WD has three chances to get any double to get Guard or double six and become ST 4 (just like any other player in the game, which coincidently, in one league i'm playing atm my Snow Troll rolled double 2 for his first skill roll and thus got Block).

The Vamp has enough probs cos he starts with the ST of a BO Blocker and the AG of an Elf! If he didn't have his probs how unbalanced would they be?
Originally I did think of just increasing the Blitzer's AG to 4 and making him 120k but then I felt that would make the catcher a bit redundant as the Blitzer would have the same MV and AG but be stronger and tougher while doing the catchers job.

While I've been told i'm a good player, i'm not a ranked pro, seasoned vet or anything like that so some of what I say may be wrong, but i'm a fair reasonably intelligent :lol: person with common sense and not some young lad or lass who comes in with these absolute ridiculous rules so he can field a team of his fav bad ass Minotaurs ya know. Thanks for replying btw :)

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by Rolex »

In no way I implied or thought you are a bad player.
I only think you didn't grasp all the implications of such a change.

With 1 skill on 1 players (guard on a blitzer) you can blitz ball with 2 dice with 2 2+ rolls, almost anytime.
If you fail you have AV 8 to protect you.
If you die another blitzer can do the same the turn after.
Wardancers leap at 3, and there are only 2 in the team. For them it is a very risky business.
And it' 90% a 1 dice block. More risky business
You can field as many leapers as you want.
And Wood are considered a top team.

IMHO I don't think this can be balanced at any price. Too many teams have no way to cope.
I would be very disappointed of winning less than 80% of my games with such a team.
I just don't agree.

I also like frogs the way they are.
Used them in one league and 2 tourneys.
I was runner-up in the league and won 1 tourney.

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by GalakStarscraper »

As the guy who designed the Slann roster ... let me comment that it is not designed as a Joke team. They have won multiple leagues that have been reported on over the last few years.

What it was done was designed as a thematic team and it was very much done on purposes.

Every single skill on the team is a form or leaping motion.

Leap, Diving Tackle, Diving Catch, Jump Up and Very Long Legs are all jumping movements and that is why the team is designed that way. It is meant to be different and definitely not a clone of what ever other catcher and blitzer gets on other teams. Too much of the same is very very boring and I would really really be against messing with the skills on the team.

After playing the team for quite some time ... the only change I personally feel the team could use is that the Blitzers should be 10k less in price and if the BBRC was still up and kicking ... I would have put this on the table and am 95% sure it would have passed by now.

The roster is actually about as close as a direct translation of the 2nd edition team as I could make along with interpretation of 2nd Ed skills into thematic CRP skills.

And as for the werewolves (ie Ulfwerners) on the Norse team ... you are welcome. ;-) I added those guys and the Snow Troll back to the team based on the original rules for the Norse team when it was very first published for 3rd Edition which allowed the team to have Ulfwerners and Snow Trolls. I really like how the revised team came out.

As for pricing a player which you went into how it works. I actually have a write-up I could not find the link to that was used ... but here it is:

Creating your own team for Blood Bowl

General Team Rules:
1) No team can have AG 4 and ST 4+ players (unless the ST 4+ players are a Big Guy or Vampire)
2) Total Strength of the 16 highest ST players should not exceed 54
3) Take all players over 100k in price that are not Big Guy stock. Subtract 100k from each of their price and multiple
this amount * the maximum number allowed. Total this amount for the team. This amount cannot exceed
60k. (Example the Chaos Dwarf team has 2 non Big Guy players over 100k. The Bull Centaurs are 130k.
Subtract 100k from each and multiple by the 2 they are allowed and you get 60k so that team is okay.
4) No team should have more than 2 0-16 slots or more than 6 different positions (including the lineman slot)
allowed on the team. (Example the Orc team has 6 different positions).
5) Slots not set at 0-16 are limited to 0-6 maximum allowed.
6) A team cannot have Agile player types and Blocker player types on the same roster.
7) Team Re-roll prices should not be set at less than 50k.
No player's ST + AG should be more than 7.

General Rules for creating players:

1) If the player's initial calculated price is over 100k. Divide the amount of the player's price over 100k by 2 to
determine the player's final calculated price. So a player worth 140k when calculated would have a final
calculated price of 120k. (note if after this is done the player in to an even 10k increment then you need to
apply rule 2 below before you have the true final calculated price).

2) If a player's calculated price is not a round 10k price. Round down 5k amounts over 100k and round up 5k
amounts if under 100k. So a player worth 35k when calculated would have a final price of 40k while a player
whose price was 135k after applying the divide by 2 rule above would have a final calculated price of 130k.

3) Any player's final calculated price may be modified by 10k more or less from the calculated
price to achieve overall team balance. This is pretty important to balancing a roster in the long run.

4) If a player's price is adjusted down from the final calculated price then this amount should be multiplied by the
number of players in that slot. No team should be allowed to have this total amount for all players exceed 40k
total for the team. Players made more expensive than their calculated price should not be factored in.
(Example if the 0-16 slot for a team calculated to 60k and the price was adjusted to 50k then this would be
16*10=160k of discount and would be disallowed.) (Remember that all discounted players needed added.
So if the team has two 0-4 slot players and each player is discounted 10k then this would be 80k of team
discount and the team should not be allowed to be created.)

5) No weapon players should be allowed to be created and placed on teams (other than Stab). So no Secret
Weapon, Bombardier, Chainsaw, Ball & Chain players created new for rosters.

PLAYER TYPES:

1) BASIC PLAYER
This player type starts as:
6/3/3/8 No Skills -- 50,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots
No player of this type should be priced for less than 30k
Skills disallowed to this player type:
Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really
Stupid, Take Root
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
30k: Regeneration
20k: Having Block and Dodge on the same player (this is on top of the 40k the player paid for Block and
Dodge already)
10k: Horns, Pass, and Thick Skull
5k: Leap and Very Long Legs
-5k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 4: -20k
MA 5: -10k
MA 7: +20k
MA 8: +30k
ST 2: -30k
AG 2: -20k
AV 7: -10k (if the player has NO other skills or stat increases)
AV 7: -20k
AV 9: +10k

2) AGILE PLAYER
This player type starts as:
6/3/4/8 No Skills -- 70,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots
No player of this type should be priced for less than 60k
Skills disallowed to this player type:
Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really
Stupid, Take Root
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
30k: Regeneration
20k: Having Block and Dodge on the same player (this is on top of the 40k the player paid for Block and
Dodge already)
10k: Horns, Safe Throw, Thick Skull, and Very Long Legs
-10k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 7: +10k
MA 8: +20k
MA 9: +40k
ST 2: -30k
AV 7: -10k (if the player has NO other skills or stat increases)
AV 7: -20k
AV 9: +20k

3) STUNTY PLAYER
This player type starts as:
6/2/3/7 Dodge, Stunty -- 30,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-16 slots or 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots
No player of this type should be priced for less than 20k
Skills disallowed to this player type:
Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
40k: Block
30k: Regeneration
10k: Right Stuff
0k: Titchy
-10k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 5: -5k
MA 7: +15k
MA 8: +30k
ST 1: -15k
AV 5: -20k
AV 6: -5k

4) BLOCKER PLAYER
This player type starts as:
4/4/2/9 -- 80,000 gold
This type is allowed for 0-6, 0-4, 0-2 slots
No player of this type should be priced for less than 80k
Skills disallowed to this player type:
Block, Claw, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy, Always Hungry, Throw Team-Mate, Loner, Bone-head, Wild
Animal, Really Stupid, Take Root
All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
10k: Thick Skull, Disturbing Presense
-5k: Decay
The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 3: -20k
MA 5: +10k
MA 6: +30k
ST 5: +40k
AG 1: -20k
AG 3: +20k
AV 7: -30k
AV 8: -20k
AV 10: +30k

5) BIG GUY PLAYER
This player type starts as:
5/5/2/9 (Loner), (Negatrait), (Damage Skill) -- 160,000 gold
A team should only be allowed to have one Big Guy type on it

Allowed:
If the team has any ST 3+ players (other than the Big Guy) then 0-1 allowed
If the team's strongest other players are ST 2 then 0-2 or 0-1 allowed
If the team's strongest other players are ST 1 then 0-6, 0-4, 0-2, or 0-1 allowed
No player of this type should be priced for less than 110k

Skills disallowed to this player type:
Block, Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty, Titchy
Loner: If the team has no other players with ST over 2 than the Big Guy should be allowed to have Loner
removed (if desired) for no increase to his price.
Negatraits (a Big Guy must have one of these):
Bone-head and Wild Animal do not change the price
Really Stupid subtracts 20k from the price
Take Root subtracts 30k from the price
Damage Skill (a Big Guy must have one of these 2 skills):
Mighty Blow does not change the price
Claw adds 10k to the price

All skills add 20k to the player's price other than the following:
10k: Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate
-10k: Always Hungry skill (Note: a Big Guy MUST have Throw Team-Mate to take Always Hungry)
-10k: Decay

The following stat changes are allowed to this player type:
MA 2: -90k
MA 3: -50k
MA 4: -20k
MA 6: +30k
ST 6: +50k
AG 1: -20k
AV 8: -10k
AV 10: +20k

6) SPECIAL PLAYER (and other notes)
Vampire 110k 6/4/4/8 Blood Lust, Hypnotic Gaze, Regeneration
0-6, 0-4, 0-2, or 0-1 allowed
No modification or extra skills allowed to this player type

Other Notes:
1) The above will allow you to create almost all of the official Blood Bowl teams along with
balancing of teams folks want to create to try something new.
2) Please note … the above rules will NOT allow you to create 4 of the official teams … namely the Dwarf, Goblin, Chaos Pact
and Lizardman teams. The Goblin and Dwarf teams because they have weapons on
the roster, Chaos Pact because they have too many slots (7) and the Lizardman team because it has 70k of
team discount (10k discount each on the 0-6 Saurus and the 0-1 Kroxigor).
3) If you want to allow teams to add in Vampires (which would be fun) a very easy way to program in the Blood
Lust skill would be to allow them to attack any member of their own team that does not have Regeneration (a
very easy modification that will have the skill work perfectly and allow the Vampire player to be added into
other teams).
4) Note on prices for the Big Guys. The starting price still gets divided by 2 for the amount over 100k when
you do the first price calculation.
Example: So a base Big Guy with MA 6 and Loner, Bone-head, and Mighty Blow would be 160k+30k=190k.
Divide the 90k by 2 = 45k. 190k-45k = 145k. Round down and the final calculated price of the Big Guy would
be 140k.
5) If you to try and have the most balanced teams possible. I strongly recommend not making changes to any
stats (Move, Strength, Agility, Armour) other than the ones I listed for each player type

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by burgun824 »

I present the following to you:

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=687698

Follow that :roll: if you want to see how to dominate with Slann in their current form. It's a high TV league and full of bashy teams. Happygrue is a slann master though. Watch some of his replays.

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by SlannMann »

Thanks for the responses and explainations. I have only got back into the game since the beginning of the year after about 15 yrs absence, so yeah Rolex, as such I prob haven't grasped all the implications of such a change to be fair. Thanks Galak for your pricing guide, that's very interesting reading. I appologise if my accusation of the Slann as a joke team was harsh or somewhat offensive. I do really like them ( obv as I am using them again in another league and they are one of my fav teams) and I do get/ like that you can't have all the teams being just a boring clone of each other but personally I do think it is a bit odd that the Catcher is the only ST 2 AV 7 guy not to start with Dodge. Thanks for the Fumbbl link burgun, i'm sure that will help me with my future games/ roster

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by GalakStarscraper »

SlannMann wrote:personally I do think it is a bit odd that the Catcher is the only ST 2 AV 7 guy not to start with Dodge.
And I think its odd with the way I think to think that every single catcher across multiple completely different races would all be copycats of the other. :wink:

I added the position of Runner to the current version of BB to help avoid these arguments. Runners used to be Catchers but folks were getting a too caught up with "everyone should be a clone" so I said fine and change the title of the position to solve this what I considered at the time as what should have been a non-argument.

I realize the above reads agressive and haughty ... I keep trying to figure out how to say it differently so it does not come across that way. I promise I get where you are coming from. I heard it from a LOT of folks while I was writing the current version of the Blood Bowl rules (thus the Runner position). But my experience is that the Catchers on the Slann team do act as Catchers even if they don't start with Dodge ... so they fit the position ... they just didn't start from a copy of the current mould.

Tom

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by Elyoukey »

I think slann is a perfectly viable team, they just don't play as the other teams do. And as you are new to the game it is very good for you to learn directly the slann. Because you have a fresh view of things. i think you should not listen to what the other coaches says (and especially you-from-the-past), but play the team and learn to use it by your own, forgetting the other tactics. Leap is not a one trick pony.
You certainly can break a cage with it, but you also can run around the oppnent team, you have access to the sideline easilly for croudpushing even a protected player. leap and dodge being the same 3+ for your linefrogs, you can consider 16 more square to move to when you are tied up, doubling the number of potential thread you can bring with only 1 roll (even failed)
so is diving catch, you can consider throwing the ball in the empty 1 square next to your catcher to avoid a dangerous gfi for your thrower, you do cover 36 squares of your half at the kick-off if you spread the catchers (almost 1/6 to have the ball directly and freely catchable)

you don't have to look at the pitch in the same way as a human or orc player does

Just the blitzer are highly overpriced in my point of view, i do not play them at all. (even a -10k would not make me play them, because they lack some survival skills and are not more reliable than linefrogs)

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by happygrue »

I agree with Elyoukey up to the point about blitzers. ;)

I would love to see the cost come down 10K because they are SO hard to rebuild later on. If your team is 1700+ and you want to hire a rookie positional for 110K that it will take a lot of time and effort to even get him block + another useful skill, it really makes your team bloated while you are trying to skill him up... and if he gets hurt then you have to buy another one and start over - not cheap!

That said, I still buy even the "overpriced" blitzers, because at low TV, the blitzers do quite well with just jump up and diving tackle (both are fantastic skills against most other rookie teams). Here are some teams that I have started out with my normal build (Krox + 2 blitzers, 8 linefrogs and 3 RR):

In Ranked (an open play format):
Hop on Pop

Leagues:
White Isle Lotus
Noble Hops

Blackbox (random matching by TV)
Battlefrogs

I post several teams because I don't think it's a fluke: I start almost all my Slann teams this way, and they have all done well.

Would those teams be better if I'd gone with catchers over blitzers? Maybe, but the blitzers are SO MUCH FUN! General, Agility and Strength access on a good stat line - and it leaps to boot! Finally, consider a catcher vs. a blitzer when rolling stat increases. I think a blitzer with +ag is a much better player than a catcher with +st, and it's only a net 20K more and twice as likely. My general plan is to avoid catchers early (maybe have one) and score with the bltizers, wait to see if you get +ag on any line or blitzers, and pick up catchers as needed if you really aren't getting any +ag on anything. I rarely have had more than 1 catcher at a time on the above teams, and many times I haven't had any.

To be clear, catchers are great but so frail. With so many positional players, I find I can't protect both blitzers and catchers, so I usually lose the catchers. Of course, some people do better than I do with their catcher builds - they win a lot at lower TV! But my point here is that Slann can still do well when focused on blitzers.

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Re: A Possible Solution to a Frogging Problem

Post by burgun824 »

:o

You've all now been blessed by the presence of the master himself. Don't ever wash your eyeballs.

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