How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Dzerards »

I really like the idea of Heralds of Khorne being Beastmen too.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by plasmoid »

I'd be worried about GS linemen. I figure the team would become very guard heavy - making all that frenzy much less of a liability.
I think G(P)M would probably Work better.

Rolex, I'm surprised that it would be that good. There are enough Minos in the game for plenty of people to have one with ST+. I doubt that it would make the team super awesome. Still, I trust your experience in that it would make a bigger difference than I thought. Probably not a good idea then.

Perhaps best solution would be Price tweaks and perhaps adjusting lino skill access.
Not super exciting, but the team is plenty exciting as is :orc:
Thanks all

Cheers
Martin

PS - just to be clear: I'm not tweaking DoK in NTBB.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by garion »

plasmoid wrote:
Oh, and Garion, if someone was doing a complete re-write, I personally wouldn't be too hot on Claw. Yes, it's a damage skill, and Khorne does damage, but Claw is just far too iconically Slaanesh for my taste.
Well it should be razor sharp claws but some buffoons removed it from the game. I am not talking about the crab claw here. And they should have it if you know your fluff. It is an absolute must.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Fassbinder75 »

The fluff in Blood Bowl especially between editions has gaping, tank sized holes in it. At least in 2nd edition you could fathom the concept of fantasy races playing in a post-medieval 2000AD inspired world, but the WHFB merge in 3rd edition was ridiculous, almost no internal logic hanging it together.

Arguing over 'fluff' in this game is tilting at windmills!

I agree thematically that the Khorne roster stinks, but turning into a yawn-fest CPOMB machine to suit those concerns is a greater crime. The roster is interesting, if you don't like it paste on another theme.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by dode74 »

And they should have it if you know your fluff. It is an absolute must.
If you "know your fluff" then they should have swords from which they cannot be parted. That'd work...

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by garion »

dode74 wrote:
And they should have it if you know your fluff. It is an absolute must.
If you "know your fluff" then they should have swords from which they cannot be parted. That'd work...
:roll:
Thats lame new fluff. All bloodbowl fluff comes from 2nd bloodbowl and 3rd ed warhammer era.

Go and read slaves to darkness. That is the source from which all chaos teams should be created. They should have Razor Sharp Claws. But since that skill became Claw that is what they must have.

There is no point in a Khorne team that is below average at bash. It might not be the most interesting team but they should represent the creatures they are meant to be otherwise what is the point. Last bloodbowl fluff i read about Khorne teams said they slaughtered the opposition killing everyone on the opposing side (or something to that effect). I really dont see this team ever achieving positive cas ratio unless they are in a particularly elfy league.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by dode74 »

Thats lame new fluff. All bloodbowl fluff comes from 2nd bloodbowl and 3rd ed warhammer era.
See, that's your opinion: why do you get to choose? Others' opinion differs. That's why it's nigh-on impossible to get "right".

I'm not going to get into the argument about whose interpretation of fluff is right or not with you again, Garion. Fluff, largely being played out in an individual's imagination, is a flexible feast whether you like it or not.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Rolex »

garion wrote:
dode74 wrote:
And they should have it if you know your fluff. It is an absolute must.
If you "know your fluff" then they should have swords from which they cannot be parted. That'd work...
:roll:
Thats lame new fluff. All bloodbowl fluff comes from 2nd bloodbowl and 3rd ed warhammer era.

Go and read slaves to darkness. That is the source from which all chaos teams should be created. They should have Razor Sharp Claws. But since that skill became Claw that is what they must have.

There is no point in a Khorne team that is below average at bash. It might not be the most interesting team but they should represent the creatures they are meant to be otherwise what is the point. Last bloodbowl fluff i read about Khorne teams said they slaughtered the opposition killing everyone on the opposing side (or something to that effect). I really dont see this team ever achieving positive cas ratio unless they are in a particularly elfy league.
You know very little of the team. I lead my league in cas in 2 consecutive seasons averaging 4-5 per match.
I read Slaves to the Darkness and The Lost and the Damned, but also everything after that.
Who am I to say what is "proper" fluff and what is not? Or saying this guy or that is a buffoon (which is quite rude)?

You know your fluff, sure. But it is your own fluff you know. The one inside your head.
You take the bits you like and discard the rest.
And you translate OldHammer straight to the BB pitch without much thought or adaptation (a tendency far to common I have named WarHammer Bowl).
Some people might agree with your vision and I'm fine with that, but that doesn't make it the right one.
That team probably fits your vision of the fluff but IMHO it looks poorly balanced, No fun to play against and no fun to play with.
IMHO that team is bad with a capitol B.

All with no offence of course. No hard feelings. Just a strong, firm and motivated disagreement. :wink:

@Dode: thanks again for the team. If I ever meetyou at a tourney IOU drink. :)

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by garion »

The fluff may have changed slightly over the years for Bloodletters in WFB. But for the most part they are the same. They are consistently described as being blood thirsty killing machines with the sole purpose of collecting skulls for their god. They have no regard for anything other than killing. They are also consistently described as having razor sharp claws that rip through even the mightiest of armour with ease. This can be traced back through every edition for WFB. Differences between Slaves to Darkness and the current edition WFB are in StD they were described as having a bite attack as well, in currently WFB this does not get a mention. In current WFB they are bound to their blade in StD they were not. This is the only difference really.

Looking purely at Bloodbowl fluff Khorne Daemons have had a team before. They slaughtered the opposition as I mentioned before. Also in 4th edition Bloodbowl Khorne Chaos teams were able to use Bloodletters and they have St5. I’m not saying that 4th ed was a well-designed roster but at least it was closer to being consistent with the source material. Considering JJ clearly envisaged these players as St5 it is clear that the current Khorne roster is wide of the mark here, St4 would have sufficed St3 is frankly just laughable, you have a player that is weaker than a human lineman. This is just plain wrong. You will also notice that Bloodletters used to have Frenzy in 4th ed as well. So it is also clear that JJ rightly felt that these creatures should resemble their WFB counterparts in being the most frenzied creatures in existence. In the existing roster Bloodletters are actually the most controlled players in your team. Somehow these frenzied killers do not have frenzy and are actually your most reliable players which goes completely against the fluff.

So that’s just looking at bloodbowl. Now people occasionally argue that you can’t look at WFB when designing a Bloodbowl team because they are different universes etc…. But this is wide of the mark. It is a parallel universe really. The countries and continents are the same. The teams all come from the same cities that appear in WFB all the creatures are pretty much exactly the same as their WFB counterparts. People have also often argued that 3rd ed bloodbowl made a move towards making bloodbowl more in line with WFB which the BBRC later tried to move away from, this is also only partly true. 1st and 2nd ed bloodbowl was very similar to 2nd and 3rded WFB. For example Albion in 1st ed bloodbowl were more akin to bretonnians just like they were in 2nd ed WFB and so on. In 2nd ed BB there were only Elf teams, but if you checked their names they represented High Elf, Sea Elf and Wood Elf teams then as well. There are some very small differences between the two worlds. Bloodbowl has an extra steam punk element which WFB did not (until the current edition WFB bizarrely). Treemen are slow in BB and fast in WFB. But this comes from Ents really and if you go back far enough WFB was a complete rip off of middle earth originally. So the fluff departure there is not big really. Looking at WFB when designing a roster is not a daft thing to do, it is without doubt an important part of the roster design. WFB has created The World which BB consistently mirrors. Dwarves are tough and slow in both, humans are average in both. Elves are fast and agile in both. When I play with a team I want it to FEEL like I am really coaching that race and having to adjust to the tactics, their strengths and weaknesses. This Khorne team does not fit the bill in anyway shape or form.

I’m also not saying that the roster I put on the other page would be fun for everyone or that it is a well-designed roster, but that should be the starting point. Make it as close to the source material as possible then make adjustments. I’m not a fan of the idea of a Khorne Daemons team at all tbh. But if we are going to have one it has to be a CPOMB killer team and the most deadly at all TVs which the current roster is far from being. I’m sure there are plenty of people that would like to play that roster, just as there are plenty that would hate it. But that is exactly as it should be.

Why make rosters at all if you are going to ignore the fluff…..

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Fassbinder75 »

You're trying to construct an argument on a entirely subjective subject garion, hence its built on sand.

Couple of things though: The 1st & 2nd Ed world was not roughly the same as 3rd. It was a satirical post-medieval Warhammer world where the Blood Bowl had supplanted warfare. Goblins wear baseball caps, Orcs go to college in the Empire, Elves have hair product contracts. There are no High, Wood or Pro Elves - its modern times, who cares :) Third edition tried to keep the comedy but place the setting back in the trad Warhammer world. Cyanide seems kind of like a meld of both, more fantasy than 2nd but more 'football' than 3rd.

People interpret the fluff on their own terms, probably from when they entered the hobby so everyone is going to have different ideas based on the changes over the years. Bretonninans, don't fit in my Blood Bowl world (just Humans) but they do in other people's and its their hobby as it is as much as mine.

In my estimation Khorne wouldn't support Blood Bowl, and if he did his teams would ignore the ball and just kill as many of the opposition as they could. Its a crazy comedy world, debating the minutiae of Bloodletters is missing the point. Fluff is just a guideline not holy tablets the brought down from Mt Olympus.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by garion »

Fassbinder75 wrote:You're trying to construct an argument on an entirely subjective subject garion, hence its built on sand.
This just isn’t true though. It is not subjective really as the inhabitants of both worlds are the same (the last post covers this in more detail), as you say bloodbowl is just more satirical and comedic but that is irrelevant when looking solely at the inhabitants themselves.
Fassbinder75 wrote: Couple of things though: The 1st & 2nd Ed world was not roughly the same as 3rd. It was a satirical post-medieval Warhammer world where the Blood Bowl had supplanted warfare. Goblins wear baseball caps, Orcs go to college in the Empire, Elves have hair product contracts. There are no High, Wood or Pro Elves - its modern times, who cares :) Third edition tried to keep the comedy but place the setting back in the trad Warhammer world. Cyanide seems kind of like a meld of both, more fantasy than 2nd but more 'football' than 3rd.
Again I am referring to the inhabitants and land masses of The World not the comedic and satirical elements. The inhabitants are the same. I also disagree that 3rd ed BB tried to make it more like WFB. 2nd ed bloodbowl did this almost as much. The difference is that by the time 3rd ed bloodbowl came out GW had a far more defined idea of The World after 3rd ed Warhammer had laid the foundations. 2nd ed bloodbowl greatly resembled 3rd ed WFB at the time, 1st ed BB completely resembled 2nd WFB and when 3rd ed BB came out it just moved with the times.
Fassbinder75 wrote:People interprett the fluff on their own terms, probably from when they entered the hobby so everyone is going to have different ideas based on the changes over the years. Bretonninans, don't fit in my Blood Bowl world (just Humans) but they do in other people's and its their hobby as it is as much as mine.
True to an extent, but as I said in my previous posts, bloodletters have never changed, their fluff is constant, both in Bloodbowl fluff and WFB fluff, only this roster diverges from the fluff and in a big way, so much so that it just does not fit.
Fassbinder75 wrote:In my estimation Khorne wouldn't support Blood Bowl, and if he did his teams would ignore
the ball and just kill as many of the opposition as they could.
I agree, and so does the existing Bloodbowl fluff. As such the Khorne team should represent exactly what you just described which is what the fluff would mean. The current roster does not fit the theme that you perfectly describe.
Fassbinder75 wrote:Fluff is just a guideline not holy tablets the brought down from Mt Olympus.
I’m not disagreeing here, it is just a guideline for the themes and to give you a good idea of stats and skills, but the current roster does not fit the theme at all. As I said before if you get rid of the Pitfighter name and call them Thugs and remove P access then they fit the fluff. If you change the Bloodletters to Khornegors and remove regen and increase their av to 8 then they fit. Then change the Herald to Bloodletters give them St4 and regenerate they would fit, horns you could take or leave, strictly speaking they shouldn’t have the skill but that is something that could go either way. They should also have Claw representing Razor Sharp Claw like the Snow Troll or Werewolf now has.

Do that and you have a team that fits the fluff, not perfectly but more than enough for them to fit their name and theme.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Darkson »

dode74 wrote:
And they should have it if you know your fluff. It is an absolute must.
If you "know your fluff" then they should have swords from which they cannot be parted. That'd work...
Cool, Blood letters all get Secret Weapon to.

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Re: How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

Post by Chris »

Well regardless of what you do with them one thing should be added right now...

Leap on the Bloodthirster!

Look at those wings, I mean why hasn't it got leap!

Anyway merits of ag1 leapers aside...

I am in the camp of team should not exist. Why? Looking at the current teams I see pact = undivided, the current 'chaos' team is obviously a Khorne team and the nurgle team is also obvious. Should have tried to add a slannesh or tzentch (both of which give interesting options that could play very differently, but that is a separate house rule thread).

So if you don't concur with that I would suggest the following. Have a chaos or pact team, paint it red and give it a selection of daemon star players.

I think star players are the only way to get demons in. The GC cost is the sacrifice/ritual. Daemons, certainly lesser demons, of the major powers also can't learn new tricks. I don't believe they have ever 'skilled up', the challenge is always to keep corporal.

So have a bloodthirster with all the trimmings and the others too. This ensures you never have more than two, but when they come to play they are suitably fearsome.

Failing all that go for something like a khorne champion (str 5) leading his pack of crazed beastmen (beastmen with frenzy) backed up by oiled thugs wearing mortal combat style loincloths (6/3/3/7 G/S/M).

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