How would you buff Daemons of Khorne

[Rolex]

I disagree with Rolex - mutations are completely normal for ALL demons, whichever god they're from (or even if they're not aligned to a power). I agree that Tzeentch will have more mutations than the others, but all should have access.

So we can agree to disagree.
Demons are a iconic rapresentations of their god and the feelings that generates them.
Having them with any mutations would be inappropiate.
If we could every deamon could have only the appropiate mutations that would be fine by me.
But that would mess needlessly with the rules that IMO work very well.
I think that giving them the "right" mutations and no M access is the best design solution.

If there are bloodletters demon models with 2heads or extra arms or tentacles...they must be very old, because I don't remember them.

I don't think you are "wrong", just that this way is better.

By the way I agree that the Chaos team is perfect to rapresent a Khorne devoted team (or a team devoted to any god) and there is absolutely no need for a "Khorne Warrior team".
Nurgle team is different IMO. It is not a team that is "devoted" to Nurgle, but that is infected by Nurgle's rot.

Blood and skulls.

[dode74]

Mutation access was not an option at the design stage for any of the players on the team.

[Rolex]

Mutation access was not an option at the design stage for any of the players on the team.

Out of curiosity: did you think (like I do) it would have a tier 1 team in leagues like Chaos or Nurgle?

Thank you again for the team.

[dode74]

The aim was T1.5 so as not to break the metagame - it's better to buff a too-weak team after gathering lots of data than to have to nerf a too-strong team which has skewed the overall game. It achieves that T1.5 goal pretty well in FOL (open matchmaking league - several thousand games played gives win% ~45%) and OCC (scheduled league - 310 games played gives win% 41-50 to 95CI).

[garion]

Existing roster


So first of all the Pit Fighters should lose that daft name. I understand this was not possible for Galak and Dode because of Cyanides stupid restrictions, but this must change. I would elect for Chaos Thugs, or Khorne thugs. that fits the theme nicely. They also should not have P access. It doesnt make sense, P is a specialised skill that only throwers should have. I would also give them M access because they are basic humans aligned to chaos really and as such should have M access. so they would look like this -

Chaos Thugs 0 -16
60k - 6338 Frenzy GM SAP

Next up I would overhaul this player, Bloodletters have to be av8 and st4, they also have to have Claw. M access doesn't bother me at all though, once a creature becomes a Bloodletter they are essentially just a walking gift of Khorne and I have never seen a Letter with a mutation so that doesn’t bother me, Darkson is right about 3rd ed WFB slaves to darkness but I still dont think its a problem. A access is ridiculous though, this must be removed. They also should have frenzy as they are the most frenzied creatures in existence. I also agree with Darkson about them not being interested in the ball. They should have no inclination in going for the ball or even knowing it exists, the best way to represent this is No hands. They also do not need horns, while they do have horns there is no reference to them in any fluff dating back to… forever of them ever using their horns as an attack. The horns are decorative only, like a plaguebearer. Claw is a must though as armour shedding claws is a staple of their fluff for as long as they have existed. ag2 wouldn’t do it for me, because they are no less agile than a human. So I would go for something like this -

130k (ish) - Bloodletters 0-4
6438 regeneration, Claw, Frenzy, No Hands GS AP

Next up – herald. I would just remove it, it is a pointless positional and adds nothing to the flavour of the team.

Bloodthirster, again I believe Galak and dode had no choice in the name here. I don’t like the idea of greater daemons playing either. So I would change this to Daemon Prince I guess and the stats provided are nowhere near good enough for a blood thirster anyway.

180k - Daemon Prince of Khorne
6 5 1 9 Loner, regeneration, Wild Animal, Claw, Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut S AP
RR 70k
No apo


There ya go. While it looks scary, it loses the reliability of having juggernaut on the lettrs, ever player now has frenzy so it is harder to control. The increased price means getting a full roster will make your team very bloaty and the only ball carriers on the team are the lowly Thugs. Powerful and good at killing – yup. Very hard to control and manage – yup. Player names correct – yup. Players represent their fluff - yup.

[voyagers_uk]

Why is it whenever someone poses a genuine question the TFF Moderators feel the need to Troll it? Seriously, what do you guys actually do for this forum other than get on people's nerves?

oh my, did you seriously just throw me under the bus there Don_Vito.

I would not comment on this thread normally as I have no experience playing with or against khorne.

But if the team needs buffing increase the number of heralds.

if the team needs nerfing, reduce them. simples

[Don__Vito]

My comment was specifically aimed at Darkson and to a lesser extent Thadrin. But that discussion has moved toan other thread so all is well again!

[plasmoid]

Hi Guys,
thanks for chipping in.
Rolex/Tzoscey - any particular reason to Draw the Bret blitzer into this? Came across as a rather pointless chip-on-the-shoulder type comment.

Anyway, Rolex, I don't want all teams to be equal. We have tier 2 and 3. I also think there is a notable difference between the bottom of tier 1 and the top of it. But for my taste, as small nudge up for Khorne would not get them close to the middle or top of tier 1.

I think neverworking has a very good point with the pricing. A lot of TV is tied up in the Blitz-action-only skills.
Perhaps a few price-cuts is all that is required.

I like Dodes heralds. But I'm not entirely sure that it could Work. ST3=>4 is the most expensive 1-stat tweak, and it couldn't be done without a massive price-hike. So I'm not sure it would help the team all that much.
But the stats make sense.
By now, admittedly, I've come to see Heralds as merely Beastmen of Khorne (Khorngors). That explains the lack of Regen as well.

Personally, I can live without the Mutations.
Daemons don't mutate much. And I can see the followers of Khorne as more brutal than mutated.
Not to mention is would just turn the players into something not very Khorne-like.
But it would help, no doubt.

AFAIK, I think Roles said elsewhere that DoK is Bloodthirster and his merry men. I'd love for the Bloodthirster to be a touch more, well, huge. I'd be tempted to tweak their stats a Little bit (and give them a small discount) in order to give them ST6 with just a small price-hike.

Oh, and Garion, if someone was doing a complete re-write, I personally wouldn't be too hot on Claw. Yes, it's a damage skill, and Khorne does damage, but Claw is just far too iconically Slaanesh for my taste.

Thanks all,
Cheers
Martin

[Shteve0]

I'm not entirely convinced by the argument for boosting the team (I'd prefer a delimited empirical rationale for how weak it is and how much of a boost is deemed necessary - nevertheless, we've been over that and it doesn't need revisiting)...

... but given what you've said in that last post, would swapping the GP access linemen to GS achieve your goal?

[dode74]

GS access would go against one of our own design goals: not another all S access team.

[neverworking]

I'm not entirely convinced by the argument for boosting the team (I'd prefer a delimited empirical rationale for how weak it is and how much of a boost is deemed necessary - nevertheless, we've been over that and it doesn't need revisiting)...

... but given what you've said in that last post, would swapping the GP access linemen to GS achieve your goal?

the advantage of making the linemen GS is that you remove all worry over collecting the all important guard skill. how much guard you need will always be in debate, but giving it universal availability alleviates any risk about it in team development. P access on the lineman is meaningless until you either a)catch an ag bump or b)give up waiting and decide to force a passer into the mix. I believe making a GP to GS switch is huge and it improves the team a lot.

The thing about this team that I have enjoyed is that it is a crazy challenge that leaves me feeling like I just might be able to harness it and make a champion out of it. It is far from easy to harness, but I feel like I just might be able to, yet mostly it fails at all the wrong moments. I was a super-skeptic when it was announced, but honestly its been fun but bad in a way that makes me feel the roster was a success for its first iteration. I'd like to see it get a good second iteration that left it still in the realms of 1.5 but a little more workable.

[Darkson]

GS access would go against one of our own design goals: not another all S access team.

Your design goals (and this goes for mutations access to) no longer are a concern now the teams "in the wild". If Martin (or anyone else) decides S access is the buff they want then they can have them.
I suspect that they reason there's no M access has less to do with "design goals" and more to do with "we don't have time to make the skins" but I understand you can't confirm that under your respective NDA's.

[dode74]

Your design goals (and this goes for mutations access to) no longer are a concern now the teams "in the wild".

While I'm sure you think so, I suspect that others think that the design goals of any team are important when tweaking them rather than redesigning them from the ground up (which I know is your and others' preference). To that end others might well be interested in the fact that it was considered another all-GS team wouldn't be particularly good for the game. But, of course, anyone can house rule however they wish (including the inclusion or otherwise of the team).

You might be right about M access (and, as you say, I can neither confirm nor deny), but as has also been said Daemons, particularly of the Khornate variety, tend to mutate far less than, say, CWs. This was certainly considered. Again, though, not-another-CPOMB-team was part of the design goal.

Martin - I might like to give the Pit Fighters M access, making them GPM and better long-term, as well as regen on the Heralds to start with, then go from there. That would be less costly than ST on the Heralds, and might actually make Horns a useful skill to take on the the PFs given all the Frenzy and lack of Guard access.

[Shteve0]

I see what you're saying mate. Ironically though, if these guys were GS and I had to pick a team to lose S access linos, I'd be gunning for Chaos Pact instead (with SM big guys), or Chaos proper. I guess the main difference is that house ruling can be carried out across the whole environment whereas you were constrained to a single roster in isolation (shrug)

[Rolex]

Hi Guys,
thanks for chipping in.
Rolex/Tzoscey - any particular reason to Draw the Bret blitzer into this? Came across as a rather pointless chip-on-the-shoulder type comment.

It is a slang thing. In my league we tested the Brets a while back to decide to include them or not.
They were not included. What was included was a new expression in our "league slang": it is "balanced like Bretonnia".
I think you can figure out what it means.
Our greatest fear when the Deamons of Khorne were announced was that they would be "balanced like Bretonnia".
We were very glad they were not.
Anyway this is OT so I apologize for the digression.

Anyway, Rolex, I don't want all teams to be equal. We have tier 2 and 3. I also think there is a notable difference between the bottom of tier 1 and the top of it. But for my taste, as small nudge up for Khorne would not get them close to the middle or top of tier 1.

I simply don't think it is worth doing. I think they are fine the way they are. I feel it would worsen them (less fun) and the game.

I think neverworking has a very good point with the pricing. A lot of TV is tied up in the Blitz-action-only skills.
Perhaps a few price-cuts is all that is required.

I like Dodes heralds. But I'm not entirely sure that it could Work. ST3=>4 is the most expensive 1-stat tweak, and it couldn't be done without a massive price-hike. So I'm not sure it would help the team all that much.
But the stats make sense.
By now, admittedly, I've come to see Heralds as merely Beastmen of Khorne (Khorngors). That explains the lack of Regen as well.

That's good thinking. My made up fluff was that they were easier to send back to the Realm of Chaos since they needed more magic to sustain them. Your is better.

Personally, I can live without the Mutations.
Daemons don't mutate much. And I can see the followers of Khorne as more brutal than mutated.
Not to mention is would just turn the players into something not very Khorne-like.
But it would help, no doubt.

100% agree.

AFAIK, I think Roles said elsewhere that DoK is Bloodthirster and his merry men. I'd love for the Bloodthirster to be a touch more, well, huge. I'd be tempted to tweak their stats a Little bit (and give them a small discount) in order to give them ST6 with just a small price-hike.

I got a ST 6 BT. You have no idea how huge it is. It turns around the team and makes them very strong 3 dice blitzing with no assist and jugg on a MA 6. 200k would be very underpriced.

Oh, and Garion, if someone was doing a complete re-write, I personally wouldn't be too hot on Claw. Yes, it's a damage skill, and Khorne does damage, but Claw is just far too iconically Slaanesh for my taste.

100% agree. Bloodletters with claw would look horrible

Thanks all,
Cheers
Martin

Thanks to you.
Please don't take offence on the Brets. None is meant.