New Ageing Rule

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fidius
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New Ageing Rule

Post by fidius »

I'm putting this in its own thread, so as not to lose it to history. It is based on the general conclusions reached in this ancient thread: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1721. At that time (2002), Ageing was the most hated mechanic in the game, and we didn't have CPOMB. In the context of making any future ruleset less unbalanced in the killy dept (tweaking CPOMB and other skills/combos, broadening out access to kill skills, etc.), a new Ageing mechanic would become valuable again.

Here is the gist of the proposal from 2002:
Replace MVP with EXP. A player rolls a die after each game he's played; if he beats his EXP total, he gains an EXP. A roll of 1 always fails, and a roll of 6 always succeeds.
After a player reaches their 6th EXP, any subsequent rolls of 1 for the EXP roll requires a possible aging roll.
On a 1 or 2 on the possible aging roll, the player has aged. Roll 2D6, to determine the aging effect.
2-8: Niggle
9: AV -1
10: MA -1
11: AG -1
12: ST -1
Galak recently added this, with which I agree:
GalakStarscraper wrote:I liked it ... but I had one major issue with it. I honestly cannot stand any off pitch roll that can kill a player (or remove stats so that the player pretty much has to be retired). [...] Players need to die from wounds on the field.
With a few changes, I think this could still work in a revised ruleset. It would look like this:
  • - Every player has an EXP stat, which starts at 0.
    - After each game, every player eligible to play that game makes an Experience roll (D6). If the roll is higher than pre-game EXP, player gains +1 EXP. A 6 always succeeds, and a 1 always fails.
    - EXP points are worth 1 SPP each.
    - Once the player has EXP of 6 or higher, an Experience roll of 1 forces the player to roll on the Ageing Table.
    - Add +1 to the Ageing roll (below) for every Niggle.
Ageing Table
  • - 2-7 No effect
    - 8 MNG
    - 9-12 Niggle + MNG
In other words, I would eliminate the intermediate d6, and go straight to the Ageing Table which incorporates a "no effect" result. Accumulated Niggles will cause MNGs and additional Niggles to become more frequent. There are no stat loss results, but Niggles will make the player more fragile on-field.

To compare probabilities between the two approaches (assuming an Experience roll of 1):
  • Galak's: 67% no effect, 24% Niggle, 9% Stat loss
    Fidius': 58% no effect, 14% MNG, 28% Niggle + MNG
These rules could replace MVP rolls (although they don't have to), and should help rookie players (esp BOBs, Tomb Guardians, Nurgle Warriors, and Fleshies) get to skill #1 faster. At the same time they should result in a natural attrition of long-lived players (particularly AV9 types), which was one of the goals of the underestimated and unbalancing CPOMB stack.

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Chris
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by Chris »

Problem with every game is it penalises players that skill slowly. Making it roll after every skill gained would balance that? Something like roll a D6, add number of advancement rolls taken. 1-6 no effect, 7-8 MNG, 9-10 MNG + Niggle
So no effect until 3 skills gained, can of course change it to something like 1-4, 6-7, 8-10 if you want it to be harsher.

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dode74
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by dode74 »

Problem with every game is it penalises players that skill slowly.
Giving them an SPP for every skill point will help them skill faster. Max 6 games to skill 1.
Making it roll after every skill gained would balance that?
So almost exactly like the old ageing? No thanks :P

Not sure if I like the idea or not, but I can see the advantages it brings over the old version.

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adhansa
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by adhansa »

If i am counting correct people will on avarage reach exp 6 after 15 matches. I quick gaze though our league avarage players have reached 5-10 none-mvp spp by then.

And of players without nigglings that have reached 6 exp, 1/6 will gain 1 spp, 1/14 will miss the next match and 1/22 will recieve 1 niggling.

Sounds early to be so harch to me. For me i would prefer to see playerlevel in the eqvation, no point having to retire low-level players just because they have played many matches/bin unlucky with their aging rolls.

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voyagers_uk
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by voyagers_uk »

Ageing is bad, mmm'Kay

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MattDakka
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by MattDakka »

I'd like an Ageing either based on number of matches played or on player's rank (for example checking Ageing each game after a player has achieved the Legend level).
An Ageing based on player's rank would affect the most troublesome players such as scoring 1TTD freaks and clawpomb killers, players with few skills shouldn't be affected by Ageing, this might discourage the Stars and Scrubs team building, one of the CRP's major flaws.

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fidius
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by fidius »

If there is ever a new rule, calling it Aging would be a huge mistake I think! Too much baggage. How about Decrepitation?? :lol:

As stated in the OP this discussion is really more for posterity than a push for change. Nonetheless I'm going to re-state the idea with one key change.

To repeat, its benefits are:
  • 1) advances hard-to-skill players more quickly
    2) effect is tied to # of games played rather than skill-ups
    3) MNG and injuries occur more frequently the older the player gets
    4) simple to implement
    5) replaces current random MVP system
Here is the system:
  • 1) Rookie players start at EXP=0.
    2) At the end of each match, make Experience Roll (d6): If roll > EXP, add 1 to EXP. 6 always succeeds, 1 always fails.
    3) Each EXP point is worth 1 SPP.
    4) If Experience Roll is a 6, and EXP>6 after the Experience Roll, roll on the Decrepitation Table (2d6), and add the player's EXP to the roll. (The Decrepitation Roll is only made if the player rolls a 6 on Experience after the match, and their EXP is now 7 or higher.):

    Code: Select all

    Decrepitation Table
      15-16: MNG
        17+: Niggling Injury (the new kind, ie +1 to Injury plus MNG)
In other words, when EXP hits 7, the player is MNG on a 8-9 (2d6), and gets a Niggle on 10-12 (echoing the Cas Table). These trigger numbers get lower as EXP is accumulated.

Summary of probabilities (ie Experience Roll (1/6) x Decrep Roll):

Code: Select all

EXP  MNG+  Niggle  Avg Games
 6    6.9%    2.8%    21
 7    9.7%    4.6%    27
 8   12.0%    6.9%    33
 9   13.9%    9.7%    39
 10  15.3%   12.0%    45
The beauty of this approach is that the effects ramp up with accumulated EXPerience.

It may need tweaks either to its effects (too lenient?) or to the nature of Niggling Injuries (+1 to Casualty Roll instead of Injury; Death only on natural 6?).

This approach is in the context of other rule changes that would dumb down the per-player killitude and spread it across the team, among other things, but it might fit just fine as a House Rule in current leagues as well, especially perpetual ones.

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El_Jairo
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by El_Jairo »

So Fidius, I think you should first determine what are the goals of this Depreciation Process?

Looking at the Benefits you define:
[quote=Fidius]To repeat, its benefits are:
1) advances hard-to-skill players more quickly
2) effect is tied to # of games played rather than skill-ups
3) MNG and injuries occur more frequently the older the player gets
4) simple to implement
5) replaces current random MVP system[/quote]
I would say that point 1&5 combine into a system where MVP can be made a little less random. You could let each coach nominate a certain number of players, I would suggest 5, you align them and give them numbers 2-6 from left to right. On a roll of 1 the MVP still get's decided randomly, other numbers simply result in that player receiving the MVP.

2) I don't really see as a benefit as I think players are more valued by the skills they bring to the team than by how many games they played before. Sure it makes sense that any kind of ageing should be linked to the number of games but this still if fantasy football. Also as you can make a roll after each game you will have the risk of freak rolls forcing early retirement on a player.

3) Replace the roll after each game by a modifier on de depreciation table based on the number of games. Now you need to set your goal on what the maximum "age" of a player should be on average.
I do like the idea of increasing MNG and career end by accumulating too many nigglings.

4) I agree that the rules should be kept to a minimum but adding an statistic to each player profile and rolling dice after each game for each player, hardly sounds as simple as things are right now.

I like MattDaka's point on this. I would suggest to start rolling after each game for ageing from 4th level (3 skills gained), and increase the odds by each successive level. On 4th level "Emerging Star", you only age on 6+ and add +1 for each successive level. So a Legend needs to roll on ageing table on a 3+.

I would suggest this table for ageing table: Roll 2d6 add your level (4-7) and compare with the following table.
5-13: no effect
14-16: MNG
17+: Niggling

So quite a similar table as yours but more chance on MNG because I feel the difference between yours isn't big enough.

As example, on reaching Legend after each match there will be a chance of 11% of gaining a niggle. Which would mean that a legend gains a niggle each 10 games played on average.

Now the question if this is sufficient but I feel the fact of getting more MNG on a positional will be something you have to handle with as coach.

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Chris
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Re: New Ageing Rule

Post by Chris »

Could you not achieve the same effect with the following changes?

During game

Injury roll - add the number of skills a player has gained to the injury roll.
Would change the injury table to
11-38 Badly hurt
39-49 Miss next game
50-53 Niggle
54-55 -1MA
56-57 -1AV
58 -1AG
59 -1ST
60+ Dead

Would also scrap Igors and make wandering apoths work on everyone...

Post match
MVp awarded as normal
AnP most 'best newcomer'
Roll a dice/flip a coin to see if this goes to the home or away side.
Randomly select any player without an advancement roll - your players, journeymen and mercenaries without the additional skill - and give them an MVP. This can be in addition to the MVP on the player for that match if they have not already got an advancement. If you don't have any players without their first skill/journeymen/normal mercs this award is wasted.

So you get more lethality and unreliability for developed players and faster developement for new ones.

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