Why isn’t Fend an Agility Skill?

[Sword of Solkan]

So, why is Fend classed as a General Skill?

The LRB doesn’t describe what's happening on the pitch when a player uses Fend but it “feels” like it belongs in the Agility Skill List, along with Dodge and Side Step. And it would make perfect narrative sense to see those Goblins slithering back out of an opponent’s striking range.

Would switching it to the Agility Skill List be game-breaking? I don’t think so. It might give stuntie teams a small boost, as their skilled players would be soaking up fewer hits each game. But they’re by far the worst teams out there, and retaining those skilled players would cut down on the money available to them for inducements. I doubt you’d see many Halfling teams dominating their local leagues.

Thoughts?

[dode74]

It would hurt teams with G access linemen like Undead, Necro, Humans and Orcs. There's already limited skill picks for them.

I don't see how it would fit fluffily with stunties: would the stunty players usually have the strength to prevent someone following up a block? I doubt it.

[Sword of Solkan]

When people talk about Fend, it's normally described as the player "cowering" away from his opponent. For example, this is the justification which was given for Bretonnian peasants starting with Fend. This is also in keeping with the way the smaller races are portrayed. Once a goblin's survived a few matches, he's very quickly going to learn to get out of the way of anyone who's trying to hit him.

Yes, it's going to inconvenience players who only have General skill access. I'm playing Slann at the moment, and would eventually like to get Fend on a couple of my linemen. But they've still got access to plenty of great skills (e.g. Block, Wrestle, Tackle and Kick): it's not like they'll be left short of options.

[dode74]

No idea where they are getting that cowering thing, but:

Fend (General)
This player is very skilled at holding off would-be attackers. Opposing
players may not follow-up blocks made against this player even if the
Fend player is Knocked Down. The opposing player may still continue
moving after blocking if he had declared a Blitz Action.

While the cowering thing is Plasmoid's justification for fend it doesn't align with the skill description which specifically states that they are holding players off, an action which will require a reasonable amount of strength.

G access linemen have some decent options, but Fend is actually a pretty good one for the LOS players after they have Block and Tackle (assuming they survive that long). If you're taking kick on more than one then I have to question your builds. Those A players also have very good options: sidestep and diving tackle spring to mind.

[Sword of Solkan]

No idea where they are getting that cowering thing

It's quite a common interpretation. The guys on the Three Die Block podcast talk about it in those terms, and I've also heard it referred to in that way at my local club.

While the cowering thing is Plasmoid's justification for fend it doesn't align with the skill description which specifically states that they are holding players off, an action which will require a reasonable amount of strength.

I understand what you're getting at here. However, the rulebook doesn't say anything about strength: just that the player 'is very skilled at holding off would-be attackers'. This could as easily be a case of a nimble player feinting one way and going the other (or ducking under a punch) and breaking off in the split second when the other guy's distracted. The combat system's generally quite abstract.

Besides which, if it were a matter of strength then it wouldn't make sense to allow a Gutter Runner or Wood Elf Catcher (both of which are Strength 2, the same as a Goblin or Halfling) access to it either.

G access linemen have some decent options, but Fend is actually a pretty good one for the LOS players after they have Block and Tackle (assuming they survive that long). If you're taking kick on more than one then I have to question your builds. Those A players also have very good options: sidestep and diving tackle spring to mind.

Sure, that's how I'll use it as well (probably with Wrestle, rather than Block, because I'm playing Slann). Elves certainly get a lot of mileage out of Sidestep, and Diving Tackle has its uses, but I'm not convinced that these skills are as useful for stuntie teams due to their low strength. Quite a lot of Goblin and Halfling coaches fire any player who levels up and doesn't roll a double, because Agility skills just aren't worth the TV increase to them. Might be nice to give them another option.

[dode74]

Just because it's a common interpretation doesn't make it right. It's quite clear in the rules.

I don't think nimbleness comes into it. What you describe sounds like sidestep to me, whereas what is actually happening here is the player is preventing his opponent from following up: that's not simply making the player miss you, it's actively preventing him from doing something he wants to do and keeping him in the same place. That takes strength.

Just because a player is ST2 doesn't mean he can't fend, just that he is less likely to do so - hence doubles in most cases. The physically larger size of the lower ST non-stunties such as human catchers, WE catchers and GRs would appear to be represented by that G access and lack of stunty skill.

I agree that stunties are often recycled, and I doubt giving them Fend access would change that in any way. What they really want is Block.

[Sword of Solkan]

But, again, the skill description doesn't say anything about strength. The player could as easily be doing something which leaves his opponent flat-footed, and therefore momentarily unable to follow up, as I've described above.

To avoid rehashing the same arguments - because we clearly don't agree on this - are there any other angles on this from a game balance perspective?

[Fassbinder75]

Fend. Called a 'stiff arm' in American Football. Its technique and timing with a dash of ST. It's more S than A, but G is still appropriate in my mind. It isn't 'cowering' by any stretch, and Bretonnians aren't even a real team.

[Moraiwe]

... and Bretonnians aren't even a real team.

Given your views on Khorne, this attitude really surprised me.

[Fassbinder75]

... and Bretonnians aren't even a real team.

Given your views on Khorne, this attitude really surprised me.

I've never asserted that Khorne is a 'real' team, I just like them more than Brets!

[Rolex]

My opinion is that fend+side step is a very powerful combination.
That would make stunty better than what they are supposed to be (which is bad).
I think that if fend was an agility skill, it would be my first or second choice for any stunty.

(When I played Brets against slow teams I often put on the bench 1 or 2 positionals on defence. To have more fend on the pitch.)

[plasmoid]

Completely true that a common interpretation isn't neccessarily right.

On the other hand, the rules text "This player is very skilled at holding off would-be attackers." - seems supremely open to interpretation. That this has anything to do with strength is indeed one such interpretation. Much like Disturbing Presence could be a myriad of Things.

(BTW, I'm very content that it is a G-skill. That is a good place to have a counter to PiOn and Frenzy).

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

I'm curious how one might hold off an attacker without some use of physicality.

[Wifflebat]

I've always imagined Fend as offensive-line techniques--getting under your opponent, deflecting their attempts to pin your arms, etc. Basically, "fending" off a defensive lineman. The stiff-arm analogy makes sense, too.

I always saw it as being "technique" rather than something that was ST or AG related, and thus, a General skill.

[GalakStarscraper]

In terms of game design ... the design team wanted Fend is a General Skill because we wanted Line of Scrimmage players to have a skill that negated Pilling On and Frenzy.

In terms of RL ... it is meant to be a variant of the Stiff Arm move in football that was shown in the image above. That was the RL move we talked about when designing Fend. I realize that this is not a move used by LOS players in RL ... but that is more of an acceptable shoehorn move on the designer's part.