Revised Chaos Pact Roster

[Decker_cky]

So I enjoy the pact roster, but I really don't think it plays as intended. Mutations are very uneven, and as is, aside from 1-2 specialist players, access to mutations tends to be played as access to claw (which combined with strength access). Further, with a totally unskilled team, there's too many 'core' skills competing with mutations, which often aren't better than the general option.

The renegades also bloat the roster with a bunch of 0-1's and prevent any positionals from being added. I get the goal of remaking the chaos all-stars, but I think the renegades are more an effect of the old ability to take allied players rather than being the heart of the roster itself. More important than that I think is the idea of having a 'human' mutant team with 3 big guys.

I saw two ideas for getting more use out of different mutations:
1.) Rostered mutations
2.) Random mutations

#2 will never leave anybody happy, so I went with #1. With that decided, I thought of how best to do it. I decided that the chaos coaches would train players with mutations to fit the appropriate roles, turning them into quasi-positionals. I also tried to avoid the mutations that were at the core of other teams schticks (foul appearance/disturbing presence, leap/VLL, horns)

0-12 Linemen 6338 No skills 50k GM/SAP
0-2 Blockers 5339 Block, Tentacles 80k GSM/AP
0-2 Throwers 6338 Extra Arms, Pass 70k GPM/SA
0-2 Runners 7337 Two heads 60k GAM/SP
0-2 Blitzers 6338 Claw 80k GSM AP
0-1 Chaos Troll As current but Non-loner S/GMAP
0-1 Chaos Ogre As current but Non-loner S/GMAP
0-1 Minotaur As current but Non-loner S/GMAP

Some decisions:
-Linemen lose excess access. They no longer have to fill every role on the team. There's plenty of mutations and general skills to keep them useful.
-Blockers (modeled off of dwarf blitzers) have tentacles on S3. It's a decent skill and will actually be very valuable against some teams. Once I gave it block (so the team wasn't totally block free), I wanted to avoid a player that you would always give mighty blow/claw to, so tentacles being at cross-purpose was a helpful idea (if you go for claw, you waste tentacles....also a good guard spot since you have a lack of strength access compared to the previous roster).
-Throwers (modeled of of human throwers) give you a player that can do things on a 2+, replacing to an extent the niche the dark elf had. Nice option for both picking up and receiving, helping other players gain SPP.
-Runners (essentially midpoint between wood elf and skaven linemen) - can stand in as a quasi-rostered skaven lineman, but gives a little speed at the expense of armour.
-Blitzers are rostered claw players, so I charged a slight premium compared to human and orc blitzers (particularly being a normal skill away from claw/MB).
-The big guys are as on the list, without loner to make the overall roster a little more reliable (even with mutations, with the overall lack of core skills and 70k rerolls, this team lacks significant reliability even with non-loner big guys).

Overall....the list falls somewhere between humans and orcs in terms of speed, and has bashiness close to orcs (same strength, but concentrated on big guys, less armour, but claw). It has mutations giving slightly better ball handling than humans and orcs statwise, but less reliable as rookies.

Star players are what I'm using to put the renegade feel back into the list:
Glart Smashrip Jr, Hubris Rakarth, Lewdgrip Whiparm, Max Spleenripper, Scrappa Sorehead, Morg ‘n’ Thorg

Any thoughts?

[Shteve0]

Not sure it needs that much of an overhaul, tbh. I'd give the linos GPM/AS and the big guys M/GASP personally, and would leave it otherwise unchanged.

[Chris]

I too would take away strength access for lino's and otherwise leave as is (take away strength access for big guys? Heresy Steve!).

Don't confuse where a team should end up with how it starts. I think the current Chaos team is a great example of this (though I would also remove str access from the beasts).

No strength access means the killer/guard build isn't a cert so there is more variability in the builds.

Saying that I do think a team with starting mutations would be neat. I think it would fit a Tzentch team though.

Something like:-

Idea is you can start with every single mutation in the game

0-16 50k Cultists 6/3/3/7 GM/APS
0-2 90k Tzeentch Blitzer 6/3/3/8 Claws, horns GSM/AP
0-2 100k Tzeentch Blocker 5/4/2/8 Prehensile Tail, Tentacles GSM/AP
0-2 90k Tzeentch Runner 6/3/3/8 Big Hand, Two Heads GPM/SA
0-2 90k Tzeentch Catcher 7/3/3/7 Extra Arms, Very Long Legs GAM/SP
0-1 110k Tzeentch Spawn 4/5/2/9 Loner, Really Stupid, Disturbing Presence, Foul Appearance, Regeneration MS/AGP
RR60k

Tzeentch spawns are horribly mutated confused beasts and are assumed the mutations work into their stats, still a few more heads and arms never hurt anyone if they get more mutations!

Tzeentch Coach

A master of magic and mystery, with a sideline in football punditry and coaching, a Tzeentch coach is more than just a slave driver (owner and trader). Once per match, if not expelled for any reason, a Tzeentch coach can cast the Zapp! spell and attempt to turn an enemy player into a toad.

(Rules are the old Zapp! rules).

The cost for this chap is contained in the teams players who cost more than their stats suggest.

[fidius]

Interesting ideas. I like how mutations can give more options in terms of mid-point abilities and agree that BB should take advantage of this (see also: Apes team with blanket Extra Arms).

Personally I think the Pact concept needs a massive re-write, starting with throwing out the idea of replicating the Chaos All-Stars.

If I was redesigning BB teams from scratch I'd make a team for every Chaos god (Chaos becomes Khorne, 4 total), then construct the Pact roster using 0-2 from representatives of all 4 factions, each with Animosity, plus 0-1 for each Big Guy (max 3), plus generic lineman - Marauders I guess, but with 6338 GM/ASP at 55k. It would be a hybrid roster with a mix of bash and dash, but with the whole not greater than the sum of the parts (ideally... somehow).

[Darkson]

Defeats Jervis' reason for adding, namely to be able to build the Chaos All-Stars of 2nd edition.

[Dzerards]

I second the only real change the Pact roster needs is make strength a double of the Marauders.

[harvestmouse]

The roster is more than fine, I think it's a very good representation of the original roster in this version. The problems are with clawpomb combo and TV. Fix those for the perpetual league and you fix Pact problems.

Don't adapt your car's suspension because the road is uneven. Fix the road.

[fidius]

The roster is more than fine, I think it's a very good representation of the original roster in this version. The problems are with clawpomb combo and TV. Fix those for the perpetual league and you fix Pact problems.

If your goal is to recreate a team that existed before (which obviously has value to those who have been around Warhammer for 30 years, which I don't understand because I wasn't, but anyway), fine -- it's a Human Mutant team with 3 Big Guys and a couple extra one-off players to spice things up.

But the OP's approach to it is much more healthy than the blank-slate, low-cost Lineman approach taken with current Pact. The conceptual problem with Pact is not CPOMB, it's the blank-slate itself. A blank slate team will tend to gravitate to the most TV-efficient build. Unless you can structure skills in a way that they all have roughly equal utility, teams will develop along the path that experience shows is most effective. Remove CPOMB, and you may not have the problem to the same extent, but you still have a min/max problem, and an optimal build problem. And the low cost of such blank-slate players only amplifies the issue.

All this is why I think Pact needs to be re-thought. Specializing positionals seems like a great start to me -- for example ball-carrying Marauders with X-Arms instead of a Dark Elf. A couple with Horns for the Blitzer role. 2-Heads for Catcher types. Pre-Tail for Blockers.

Also if you want the team to be the Chaos All-Stars, call them the Chaos All-Stars. But if what you want is a "Pact" team where the 4 Chaos cults play together (which I think would be interesting), take players from each of 4 spheres and build a cool Tier-2 race with a ton of variety that's fun to play.

Or do both.

[Darkson]

Also if you want the team to be the Chaos All-Stars, call them the Chaos All-Stars. But if what you want is a "Pact" team where the 4 Chaos cults play together (which I think would be interesting), take players from each of 4 spheres and build a cool Tier-2 race with a ton of variety that's fun to play.

Or do both.

That was suggested (repeatedly) to Jervis - we have what he decided he wanted to do.

[harvestmouse]

Well the original team had thrower, mutant and blitzer positionals, so you could go that way. What I dislike about Decker's suggestion is the random mutations. Runners are defined by 2 headed players..............so this is to say the team wouldn't consider a mutant with extremely long legs (old version) in favour with one with 2 heads. It's throwing skills together to get interesting combos, rather than accurate describing.

I still think, fix TV for perpetual and Pact aren't a problem, but what you could do is have mutant, thrower, blitzer postionals.

In that all players start with no stats like now, but only the blitzers have S access, mutants M access and throwers P access. Rather blanket access like they do now. I'm not sure Marauders should really start with S or P access (as we know Marauders anyway, however for the Allstars being 'all stars' it fits).