'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

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Chris
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'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by Chris »

So, do you agree that long term (100+ games) open mm leagues and scheduled leagues have certain teams dominating?

I see far more chaos (both and dwarves) and elf (the various varieties, some more than others) than other teams. Chaos varieties don't win much but can simply destroy the other team. Elf teams can still win consistently. Anyone think this is wrong? I can try and dig out dodes stats when I get to a proper computer.

If you do concur or want to offer up a different team, what do you think are ways of changing this? Nerfing them, buffing others or rule changes?

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by RoterSternHochdahl »

I agree for the most. In the German online community we have adopted our league system on this basis changing from an supposedly infinite System to 4 seasons with 14 matches each. This Systems has made very visible what was to be suspected anyway: most Teams only shine at certain points of the TV-scale, others only under certain conditions (any dwarves around?), a third group of teams never shines. The smallest group is the one that is alway competitive. In the "infinite" System Chaos and Nurgle just crashed everything after a while.

If you are interesested in data, we have a vast database of cyanide based data with thousands of matches available in our league management tool on deutsche-bb-community.de.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by adhansa »

Can of worms to open eigh?
Yes, i agree, this will be where thingswill be heading in long leagues. Only things stopping it is new teams coming into the league and people geting bored with their killerteams.

My own theory is (in a general way with exceptions):
There are more or less 4 type of team AV-bash, Claw-Bash, Agilaty and Hybrid/others.
In high TV Claw-bash destroys AV-Bash and hybrid teams. Agilaty teams can evade enough to survive and heve enough skill to keep winning matches. So it becomes kind of a filter where av-bash and hybrid gets filtered away.

My personal opinion is that (except changing the format) changes like CRP+ are the best way to change this cycle. In iterations the combintion of rules in crp + will accomplish this. The rules i am refering to is:
1 nerfing clawpomb
2 upping fouling
3 bank combined harsh spiraling expenses at high TV.

This will create changes:
1. Claw-bash teams will stop destroying other teams.
2. The fouling changes will keep up player casualties, make teams with cheap linemen better compared to teams with good stats/good skill availabilaty.
3. There will be created sort of a optimal TV range where all teams will end up hovering and it will be possible to finetune the rules/metagame so more races becomes competative at these ranges.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by dode74 »

Not so much, I think. OCC, for example, in season 27, has just had the second Necro champion in succession, with last season's Necro champion set to come second this season. These are the win percentages per race to 95CI for 23605 matches played so far:
Image

That's overall stuff, so includes all the lower TV and lower division data. As far as division 1 goes, this google doc shows the results of every team to make it into Div 1 from season 4 to season 25 (I believe), so there's 2 seasons of Necro champions to add to it (Nolgum Volpay, in 17th here, will move up to 8th, possibly 7th with one match to play, for example): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

It's worth noting that a number of these seasons only included the 9 original DE races (and a few of those didn't even have DE), so it's of limited use. Certainly a lot of the WE championships were very early on, and the Chaos ones were mostly in the early-mid seasons too. I'll see if I can get data for from when we moved to LE.

OFL, a different league, runs a system of 3 16-match seasons per era, with playoffs after each season (NFL-style). After each era the teams are reset, but there is some continuity because players are kept as purchasable free agents (max 3 per team, max total 600TV value on purchase) and teams start at 1150TV at the start of an era (higher if they join mid-era). There is also a limit to the number of each race in the league. Seems to work nicely.
most Teams only shine at certain Points of the TV-scale
This I would agree with, to an extent. Certainly some teams are more efficient at certain TVs while others continue to improve as TV increases. It's a good reason to not play TV-based MM.

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'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by Chris »

All I want for mm is rostered bribes for goblins and rostered chef for halflings! :)

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by koadah »

I nerf CPOMB but that is not necessarily enough.

Though I don't use it myself I like the SWL/WIL approach of restricting races by quotas. e.g Only so many bash/agile/hybrid/tier 3. That should get you a bit more diversity. You could give the weakest coaches first pick of races.

You can also impose a salary cap at season start. So teams must trim down so that TV + cash does not exceed a certain amount.

I really hate the idea of a reset. I would want people to be able to keep their famous players if possible.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by MattDakka »

koadah wrote: I really hate the idea of a reset. I would want people to be able to keep their famous players if possible.
I agree, playing the teams with few starting skills, which are better after some games, is pointless if you can't keep them season after season.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by dode74 »

koadah wrote:I really hate the idea of a reset. I would want people to be able to keep their famous players if possible.
OFL allows that, to an extent. You can carry forward up to 3 players from your team from the previous era, but they count toward your FA allowance. If you don't get the race you wanted in the start-of-era draft you can protect up to 1 team, meaning that team doesn't disband and have the players put in the FA pool like all the other teams. You can then continue that team next time you get the opportunity.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by RoterSternHochdahl »

MattDakka wrote:
koadah wrote: I really hate the idea of a reset. I would want people to be able to keep their famous players if possible.
I agree, playing the teams with few starting skills, which are better after some games, is pointless if you can't keep them season after season.
Nobody likes Resets but the game is broken in a way at HighTV that it cannot be fixed by the means provided by the Cyanide client. We had long and controversial discussions on it but in the end of the day the hard cut was the best option for us

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by Chris »

RoterSternHochdahl wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
koadah wrote: I really hate the idea of a reset. I would want people to be able to keep their famous players if possible.
I agree, playing the teams with few starting skills, which are better after some games, is pointless if you can't keep them season after season.
Nobody likes Resets but the game is broken in a way at HighTV that it cannot be fixed by the means provided by the Cyanide client. We had long and controversial discussions on it but in the end of the day the hard cut was the best option for us
Well, Cyanide is going to bring in forced retirement which will catch the long lived killer players.

Of course I think that will just benefit the fast skilling AG players...
dode74 wrote:It's worth noting that a number of these seasons only included the 9 original DE races (and a few of those didn't even have DE), so it's of limited use. Certainly a lot of the WE championships were very early on, and the Chaos ones were mostly in the early-mid seasons too. I'll see if I can get data for from when we moved to LE.
Ta Dode.

Do you also still have Cyanide MM data?

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by dode74 »

Not taken a download in a while, but box data is probably better due to the better ruleset. Koadah's stuff is here: http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... stats.html

The BB2 aging will be optional for player-run leagues and mandated in the Cyanide-run open leagues (equivalent of Nagg, I suspect).

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by Chris »

Thanks. That is interesting - slap on an arbitrary 1500tv minimum and the 3 chaos teams (Chaos, Nurgle and Dwarves) have played almost as many game as the next 6 combined (with Chaos accounting for half of those matches).

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by dode74 »

Yep. Regular FUMBBLers would know better than me, but I believe a lot of people deliberately keep their TV fairly low in B to avoid "the CPOMB zone" (like the twilight zone, but you know the outcome beforehand). I suspect it is more to do with TV matching than anything else.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by MattDakka »

dode74 wrote:Yep. Regular FUMBBLers would know better than me, but I believe a lot of people deliberately keep their TV fairly low in B to avoid "the CPOMB zone" (like the twilight zone, but you know the outcome beforehand). I suspect it is more to do with TV matching than anything else.
The Box scheduler has changed some time ago, currently teams with 30 matches or more could face teams with a TV way higher than theirs, i.e. keeping an old team at low TV deliberately in order to ambush young teams with few games is less advantageous than how it used to be before the Box scheduler change.
Of course nothing stops coaches from playing a strong low TV team for less than 30 matches, retire it, then making a new one in a rinse and repeat way.

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Re: 'Fixing' domination of certain teams in cyanide

Post by koadah »

dode74 wrote:Yep. Regular FUMBBLers would know better than me, but I believe a lot of people deliberately keep their TV fairly low in B to avoid "the CPOMB zone" (like the twilight zone, but you know the outcome beforehand). I suspect it is more to do with TV matching than anything else.

There is no TV protection after a team has played 30 games. If you are unlucky you could be thrown in with a 2000k killer chaos. A lot of people stick to low TV/young teams.
In the Black Box play high TV is not very attractive unless you are going to go CPOMB.

I wouldn't say that TV matching is to blame. People just don't enjoy the games.

My league only really has one very nasty CPOMB team. I could just kick them out. ;)

Why can't you use salary caps rather than resets?

Cyanide does suffer from not having all the inducements. Not all stars and no cards.
My current Cup event had a lot of shock giant killings in the early rounds. brand new teams beating huge sides.
It is mostly big teams left in the final stages though.

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