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 Post subject: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:54 pm 
Legend
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Hi all,
there has recently been a discussion on bbtactics, regarding the limited usefulness of passing skills and throwers.
AFAIK, most people believe that passing is too risky, and running the ball is generally preferable.
In a nutshell, this is due to the double turnover risk (pass roll and catch roll) as well as the fact that turnovers that put the ball on the ground are the very worst turnovers.
The risk is big enough for elf teams to try to avoid. And for AG3 teams it is a substantial risk - and requires multiple skill-ups on several players to mitigate.

This got me thinking of an idea of mine, that would benefit the passing game of the AG "hybrid" teams, without helping elf teams:
Add a further +1 to catch rolls if no negative modifiers apply (i.e. TZs, rain, disturbing presence).

The objection was raised that this might help bashy teams too much as well, boosting their "plan B".
Now, I'm fairly certain this would help out actual passing teams a lot more than the bashy ones. But I see the point.
And that gave me this idea: Make the above mentioned 'uncontested catch' bonus part of the Pass skill.
Might make things quite a bit more interesting for teams with built in throwers like Human, Orc, Skaven, Amazon and Norse. Even dwarfs.

The pass skill would then read like this:
Pass (P): A player with this skill is allowed to reroll the D6 if he throws an inaccurate pass or fumbles.
In addition if the player throws an accurate pass, and the resulting catch is uncontested (e.g. not a single negative modifier applies to the catch roll) then a further +1 is added to the catch.


What do you all think?
Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:57 pm 
Legend
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Oh, as a side note we also discussed some more useful P-skills:

Like the classic Stiff Arm (P): When subject to a blitz, where the blitzer has left his starting Square, add +1 to the Stiff Arm players ST.

Or my new Call Audible (P): If this player is set up neither in the wide zone or on the LOS, then ignore any opposing rolls of Perfect Defense or Blitz!

....but I should probably have put those in another thread.

Cheers
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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:15 pm 
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I like the first rule. In another thread I have also suggested to give out 2 SSP for 5+ passes if caught (meaning not just distance, but negative modifiers due to tacklezones on the thrower). That would be the same rule vice versa on the passer, rewarding him and make passing more attractive for running teams, without making the passing teams worse.

It simply appears strange to me, that the interception gives you 2 SSP for throwing only one die, instead of three (pick up the ball, pass it, catch it).

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:32 pm 
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Great idea. Right now the throwers are underused pieces that dont live up to a player that can take 'leader'. And I dont think I have ever seen a norse/amazon thrower throw the ball.
But needs to be playtested.

Call Audible seems very strong. A wood elf team that can ignore Blitz will have a very good drive start.

I like Stiff Arm, but also seems very good.

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:59 pm 
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Stiff arm is too powerful. Especially for thos stronger ballcarrying teams. Same goes for audible. The Pass Skill modification seems best to me. Small but effective tweak on the ruleset.

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:22 am 
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Would a surrounded receiver with Nerves of Steel get the +1 catch bonus?

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:27 am 
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Right, I don't normally get into house rules discussions, but I've been out on the piss, so... I noted Martin said that turnovers that put the ball on the ground are the worst. This is indeed bad. What 'if' the dice roll needed for a 'proper' catch was one short of needed, the receiver got a 'stunbling' catch. They catch the ball and hold it, but can't move after? Or maybe take a random step once, 1d8?
So not the complete disaster of the ball on the ground, but not the desired effect of the pass..?
Just putting it out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:31 am 
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Just a side question...
Why don't you keep house rules in the house rules section of this forum?
Or new concepts in the new concepts section?
That is where this stuff belongs, using the general chat won't make it official rules, you know.

BTT:
This, again, is thinking about one sort of team (AG3) in mind and completely forget about the boost you'll give AG4 teams. I just shudder to think about Wood Elfs if those changes came into effect...

plasmoid wrote:
AFAIK, most people believe that passing is too risky, and running the ball is generally preferable.
That is only true for players who play Blood Bowl competitive. I did a lot of passing with my orcs and had fun with it.
Sure, the flying ball is by far the most unreliable way of moving the ball when you play a basher team. But I think from the viewpoint of game design, it should be like that.
Why, you ask? Because you easily outmaneuver the whole opponents team just by chucking the ball over their heads. The benefits are quite good so it should be more risky.

In my opinion: Just leave the rules alone.


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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:30 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:33 pm 
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I always wondered if passing would be more popular if the endzones were two or even three squares deep.

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Joemanji wrote:
I always wondered if passing would be more popular if the endzones were two or even three squares deep.


Stalling would be harder at least.

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:48 pm 
Legend
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Hi Guys,
thanks for your feedback
about Call Audible and Stiff Arm:

Dino & Bakunin, you both found Stiff Arm a touch strong.
I have no personal experience with it, but I do know that it was a legal skill in MBBL2 for a number of years. AFAIK it was not considered a problem skill, but it would take someone from the League to confirm or deny.

Call Audible - Again you're concerned about the power level. So were some on bbtactics. Others were not.
I recently discussed it with a World class tournament player, who figured that for tournaments he'd consider it, but he'd end up not taking it.
If it was considered too powerful, then it would be easy enough to come up with a less powerful version. Like it either requiring a roll, or it allowing you to reset part of or all of your offense instead of just ignoring the Blitz!/PD.
So it could be done.

That said, I'd at least consider, that it only has a chance to work when you're the offense. If you have a meaningful offense twice per game, and PD/Blitz! only comes up one in 6 kick-offs, it would do something on average once every 3 games.
IMO, for a 1-in-3-games skill to compete with skills like block and Dodge, that have an effect on the game every single turn, you'd need to get some bang for your buck.

Birdman37 said:
Quote:
Would a surrounded receiver with Nerves of Steel get the +1 catch bonus?

Yup. Unless he was catching too close to a Disturbing Presence or in the Pouring Rain. (Thus slightly improving another fairly unpopular skill).

Joemanji said:
Quote:
I always wondered if passing would be more popular if the endzones were two or even three squares deep.

I'd love for the 2-square endzone to make a comeback.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:57 pm 
Legend
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Hi Regash,
Quote:
using the general chat won't make it official rules, you know.

I know. As do everyone else. I hope you don't think this is a ruse to trick people into thinking these are somehow official musing.
I made the(se) post(s) in General because the forum is dying, and traffic outside of G is horribly low.

Quote:
This, again, is thinking about one sort of team (AG3) in mind and completely forget about the boost you'll give AG4 teams. I just shudder to think about Wood Elfs if those changes came into effect...

Are you thinking about Stiff Arm and Call Audible? Because even for elven teams I don't think the thrower is the game dominating positional?

If you're thinking about the suggested change to Pass in the original thread, then it would have zero effect on elfs. None.
Elfs catch on 2+. Getting a further +1 to catch when no negative modifiers apply would still make that a 2+. That is what (IMO) is so clever about it.
So, compared to everyone else, Elf teams would be getting ever so slightly weaker.

Quote:
In my opinion: Just leave the rules alone.

Well, I quite enjoy thinking about and discussing rules.
That's one of the fun Things about a forum such as this one.

Cheers
Martin

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:06 pm 
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Martin, it seems like I did not understand something correctly - does "Stiff arm" then only apply to the Kick-Off result "Blitz!"?

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 Post subject: Re: Better passing/more useful throwers
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:54 pm 
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I think the problem is that it is 2 die rolls, making the risk of failure to big. With a way to reduce passing and catching to one roll, i think passing would be much more popular and that that is the way to go, even though it will be more tricky to come up with balansed rules.


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